The Righteous Shall Never Be Removed

In one of the comments to my article “Does the bible teach that the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt?” the other day, the commenter stated that Proverbs 10:30 means that there will be no rapture of the saints;

“The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

I missed that verse in my response, but that does not mean I don’t have an opinion on it;

My first response is that he is taking the verse out of context.  Have a look at the verses immediately preceding it;

“27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.  28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.  29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity. ” Proverbs 10:27-29

The context of “removed” in this passage is “taken in judgment”,  It has nothing to do with the rapture of the Church.  This is a statement regarding the End of the Tribulation period, NOT its beginning!  At that point the Tribulation believers will be held aloft by angels, as destruction and judgment rains down beneath them. Matthew 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

It is useful cross-referencing this passage  with the parallel passage in Mark;

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.  Mark 13:27

When most people read “heaven” they immediately think of God’s home, but I don’t think this is a reference to the third Heaven.  The reference to “the four winds” is meant to make us think of the atmosphere, the first heaven.

These people are being lifted off of the surface of the earth, into the “heaven” of the atmosphere.  (See Genesis 1:20)  They are taken to the “uttermost part of heaven” which is the corresponding part of the atmosphere above where they were lifted from.  They will be witness to God’s judgment on their enemies.  And in the generations of their offspring to come, they will be there to tell them of that which they have seen.

My correspondent has, however hit upon something that I came across while researching for The Spirit of Prophecy;  Proverbs 10:30 will be jumped on by the “Church” members who are left after the Rapture!  Let’s face it, many pastors, Bishops, Cardinals, the pope, and many members of all denominations will be left behind.  They will have to come up with something to explain why they were not taken.

This is it!

Many of these people will say that those people who disappeared in the rapture were taken in judgment!  They will say things like “Those evil people who stood in the way of Christian unity were removed and taken to Hell!”  They will also use this verse to say that they themselves “are the righteous, who have inherited the earth!”  Should they say that “it was Satan who took those people to Hell” they will have committed the unforgiveable sin! (Matthew 12:31)

Of course there will be those who say that it was an “alien abduction“, even the Antichrist might say this, but I am not talking about unbelievers, but of professing believers!  Just because someone believes in God does not make them a true believer!  It just makes them a lost deist!

Those who profess to be believers will look for an explanation in the bible!  Those who are honest may actually get saved, but anyone who believes the Rapture of the Church was an act of judgment against them, will be predisposed to follow the Antichrist!

This should be viewed as a warning to those who deny the Rapture today, including my correspondent!  They are already preparing to deny the Rapture by taking Scripture out of context, and teaching others to do so!  I am sorry, but professing Christians are sometimes used as tools of Satan to pass around false doctrine!  There can only be one true biblical Eschatology!  All the others are either misinterpretations, products of human imagination, or worse!

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About dknezacek

An average, ordinary guy. Author, husband, father, pilot, aircraft builder, test pilot, machinist, artist, just ordinary stuff that lots of people do. Don't forget bible student. Dan's passion is bible study, especially including the End Times prophecies.
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3 Responses to The Righteous Shall Never Be Removed

  1. ICA says:

    Hi brother Dan! Hope all is well. 🙂

    Dan, “the other day, the commenter stated that Proverbs 10:30 means that there will be no rapture of the saints”

    Not sure where I gave that impression, but I did not state that Proverbs 10:30 was saying there would be no rapture. There is a gathering of the elect, and Scripture is very clear in this regard so I believe in our rapture to Christ. What we see differently, however, is the idea that the rapture will happen “before the tribulation” and that the righteous would be removed from the earth while all hell breaks loose, as many often teach. Pre-tribism teaches that the rapture happens because judgment comes. Proverbs 10:30 is clear that when judgment comes it is the wicked that are removed while the righteous remain. Pre-tribism, however, teaches that when judgment comes the righteous are removed while the wicked remain.

    Dan, “My first response is that he is taking the verse out of context. Have a look at the verses immediately preceding it… The context of ‘removed’ in this passage is ‘taken in judgment’, It has nothing to do with the rapture of the Church.”

    Then let’s examine the context again. The preceding verses tell us that the expectations of the wicked will perish and that destruction comes to the workers of iniquity. If we view these verses in an eschatological context, when does destruction come upon the workers of iniquity in the time of the end? It is their destruction when the “orge” wrath of God comes, His post-trib appearance and judgment of the wicked. This is the Day of the Lord. This is Armageddon. The pre-trib problem therefore remains: Why would the very next verse state that the righteous will never be removed if they were, as pre-trib teaches, already removed because of coming judgement upon the wicked 7 years earlier?

    I was pre-trib for over 20 years, until I began to see why it was such a tenuous position to take since it was at odds with numerous portions of Scripture time and time again. Notwithstanding the fact that Scripture never speaks of a “7-year tribulation”, Scripture tells us that:

    * The “Blessed Hope” is eternal life that is actualized at Christ’s post-trib appearance. It is not a pre-trib rapture (cf. Titus 1:2; 2:13; 3:7).

    * The “First Resurrection” of the dead in Christ only happens after tribulation, not before. If there is no resurrection before the tribulation then a pre-trib rapture is impossible (cf. Rev 20:4-5; 1 Thess 4:16).

    * The “wrath” that we are not appointed unto is the “orge” wrath only, which is itself only found in a post-trib context in Revelation (cf. 1 Thess 5:9; Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15).

    * We are explicitly told we may experience tribulation right up until Christ’s glory is revealed. He does not reveal His glory until “immediately after the tribulation” (cf. 1 Pet 4:12-13; Matt 24:29-31).

    * The “rapture” is clearly outlined in Revelation 10 at the seventh and last trumpet, which is post-tribulational (cf. 1 Cor 15:52; Rev 10:7).

    * The marriage supper of the Lamb only takes place after the Lord judges the “great whore” and avenges “the blood of his servants at her hand.” This is post-tribulational only (cf. Rev 19:2).

    * We are told by Christ to even watch for the post-trib “cosmic signs” and to be ready in Him so that we can escape all these things in “that Day” — which is the Day of the Lord, His post-trib return and judgment of the wicked (cf. Luke 21:25-36; Matt 24:29).

    1 Peter 4:12-13, “Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you … but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.

    Matthew 24:29-31,Immediately after the tribulation of those days … they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect …”

    Colossians 3:12-13, Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another …”

    I could go on, but I’ll digress. God bless! 🙂

  2. dknezacek says:

    T,

    You are still taking it out of context. The “removed” means “removed in judgment”. That is the context of the verse.

    You said; “I was pre-trib for over 20 years, until I began to see why it was such a tenuous position to take since it was at odds with numerous portions of Scripture time and time again. Notwithstanding the fact that Scripture never speaks of a “7-year tribulation””

    Yes it does, we have already discussed that. The seven years found in Revelation 11 and 12.

    Revelation 11:3
    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    There is a consecutive relationship between these two passages. Revelation 11 comes before Revelation 12. Each of these is 3 1/2 Hebrew years. Do the math.

    Revelation 12:6
    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    This is the same seven years which is found in Daniel 9

    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

    The Messiah was cut-off at the end of the 69th week. You are reading an extra week into this passage, so that your messiah was cut-off after 70 weeks. There is still one week to go. It has not been fulfilled, and I don’t care who says it was.

    You don’t seem to understand who the Antichrist is. While he is a great enemy of God, he himself, is also a judgment from God. Thus the rapture is to keep the church from this judgment of God.

    Here’s something I have discovered. If you study Scripture with the wrong presuppositions you will end up with the wrong answers every time!

    The Jews are into the study of the Old Testament Scriptures far more seriously than most Christians are into the New Testament, yet after nearly two thousand years, most of them still do not see the Messiah! Most of them still do not see that the Messiah must come twice. So I am not surprised that you do not see the pre-Trib rapture.

    You said;
    “* We are told by Christ to even watch for the post-trib “cosmic signs” and to be ready in Him so that we can escape all these things in “that Day” — which is the Day of the Lord, His post-trib return and judgment of the wicked (cf. Luke 21:25-36; Matt 24:29).”

    Are you sure these are “post-trib” cosmic signs? In my studies, which I documented in The Spirit of Prophecy, I showed that these signs are pre-trib, signs. They will also be mid-Trib, as well as late-Trib, but there definitely will be similar signs during the closing days of the Church-age;

    Joel 2:31
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

    You said;
    “* The “First Resurrection” of the dead in Christ only happens after tribulation, not before. If there is no resurrection before the tribulation then a pre-trib rapture is impossible (cf. Rev 20:4-5; 1 Thess 4:16).”

    The first resurrection has already begun! Jesus is the firstfruits, and the first of the resurrection, but He wasn’t alone! There were other Old Testament saints who were resurrected at the same time!

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:52-53

    Besides this, I already shared Isaiah 26 with you. There is a very clear chronological order here of the dead saints arising, and then the rapture, and then the “Indignation” or wrath of God.

    “19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    I know you question what is meant by the “Indignation” here, but here as in other places it is the wrath of God against the arrogance of man, and that is another name for the Tribulation. Whether it is 3 1/2 years or 7 is another debate, but I think the evidence is that it is the full 7 years, because the Antichrist is a judgment of God. Essentially He says; “You want to do it your way? OK, have it your way!” Man’s way will very nearly result in the total destruction of this planet!

    You Said:
    “* The marriage supper of the Lamb only takes place after the Lord judges the “great whore” and avenges “the blood of his servants at her hand.” This is post-tribulational only (cf. Rev 19:2).”

    Funny thing, which I missed before; In Revelation 19 we have the marriage supper of the Lamb in verse 9, and then, afterward, in verse 11 we have Christ and the Church getting on horses and coming back to earth! They come back to earth AFTER the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, so long as you look at Revelation 19 chronologically!

    You may be correct that the Marriage supper of the Lamb is after the destruction of the whore of Babylon, but since this occurs at the mid-point in the Tribulation, there is plenty of time for a feast before we leave to come back to earth!

    The elect gathered by angels in Matthew 24:29-31 are in their fleshly bodies. The Church, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will not need to be lifted aloft by angels, He will call and we will come to Him! We will be empowered by the Holy Spirit, and should we leave the earth’s atmosphere it won’t harm us, because we will have bodies like Him!

    Matthew 24 is several years later, and the clouds of Heaven are a reference to the Church. How could He be coming with them if he is about to send His angels to pick them up from the surface of the earth? There is a logical inconsistency in your beliefs!

    Here is another thought; Do you think you are ready to come back with Christ and rule the earth with Him as you are right now? I would not be so self-confident! I think we will need seven years in the University of Heaven, before we will be qualified to rule the earth with our Lord! Right now the best of us is too fleshly, too worldly. We need a Heavenly perspective, which we will gain by spending time in Heaven, and seeing God in His splendour! If we were to simply ascend into the atmosphere, and then come back to earth we would not be changed in the way He wants to change us. I have already been in the clouds, and I have not been changed in that way just yet!

    Most Christians have suffered fiery trials throughout history. That was man’s wrath, but the Tribulation, the whole seven years of it, is the wrath of God.

    Dan

  3. ICA says:

    Dan, “You are still taking it out of context. The ‘removed’ means ‘removed in judgment’. That is the context of the verse.”

    Hi brother! So you believe that prior to God’s judgment of the 7-year-tribulation that He removes the righteous from the earth, even though Proverbs 10:30 is clear that the righteous will never be removed in judgment? I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    Dan, “Yes it [scripture] does [speak of a 7-year tribulation], we have already discussed that. The seven years found in Revelation 11 and 12… There is a consecutive relationship between these two passages. Revelation 11 comes before Revelation 12. Each of these is 3 1/2 Hebrew years. Do the math.”

    The “woman” flees into the wilderness until she is rescued at the end of tribulation, and the “two witnesses” are not killed until the end of tribulation. These two passages are not written consecutively, rather they are written semitically and describe only one 3.5 year period. This writing style is seen repeatedly throughout Revelation. We know this because according to the immediate context of Revelation 11 the “two witnesses” are killed at the end of tribulation, not in the middle of a “7-year tribulation”. Upon being killed John then reveals that “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (11:15). This cannot be true if there is still another 3.5 years to go. Moreover, this is the time during which the post-trib “orge” wrath comes upon the wicked (cf. Revelation 6:12-17) and the saints are given their reward (11:18). All of this only happens at the Second Coming of Christ, not before, including the “lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail” (11:19 — see Revelation 16:17-21).

    Dan, “This is the same seven years which is found in Daniel 9 … The Messiah was cut-off at the end of the 69th week. You are reading an extra week into this passage, so that your messiah was cut-off after 70 weeks. There is still one week to go. It has not been fulfilled, and I don’t care who says it was.”

    I am not reading an extra week into the text. Rather, I am simply accepting what the prophet Daniel wrote regarding the Messiah, that He was “cut off” during the 70th week. As I now see it, pre-tribism adds meaning to Daniel 9 that isn’t in the text. According to the full counsel of Scripture, Christ is the One Himself who already fulfilled at least the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. When it was pronounced to Daniel that 70 weeks were determined for his people and that the Messiah would be “cut off” after the first 69 weeks, the natural presumption can only be that the death of the Messiah would take place sometime during the last week. What could be more naturally assumed than that the death of Messiah concerned the 70th week? Considering that the Messiah is mentioned more times in Daniel 9:24-26 than anyone else, it stands to reason in my mind that the Messiah is Daniel’s primary, who then writes:

    Daniel 9:27a, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease…”

    If a covenant was subsequently confirmed by Christ, then Scripture should affirm this elsewhere. And does it? Let’s allow Scripture to speak for itself and compare Danial 9:27a above with the following verse below:

    Galatians 3:17, “And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.”

    Not only does it imply as much, Galatians 3:17 uses the exact same language as Daniel 9:27a, indicating that the Apostle Paul was quoting Daniel directly and telling us that Daniel’s 70 weeks did not stop once the 69th week came to an end. It continued right into the 70th week, the time when Messiah began His ministry and the time during which the Messiah would be cut off according to Daniel 9:26. The Hebrew word for cut off is karath, which means to cut off, cut down or kill. Although it is frequently used in the sense of being rejected, it is also used 54 times in the Old Testament in the context of being killed (eg. Exodus 31:14). And indeed, something pivotal took place about 3.5 years after Jesus began His earthy ministry. Not only was the Messiah rejected by the people (Psalm 118:22; Matthew 21:42), He was also crucified in accordance to the plan of the Father for the sins of the world. As the Prophet Isaiah wrote, “He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken” (Isaiah 53:8), and being cut off and the shedding of His blood would be, according to the words of Messiah Himself, the confirmation of the covenant for many:

    Matthew 26:28, “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

    The Messiah is the Lamb of God. He is our Passover. And because of His sacrifice, the sacrifice and oblations (offerings) of the old law ceased

    Hebrews 8:6-8, “… he [Christ] is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

    Hebrews 10:1-10, “For the law … can never with these same sacrifices … make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered?… For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: ‘Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come — In the volume of the book it is written of Me — To do Your will, O God.’’ … then He said, ‘Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.’ He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].”

    There is nothing in Scripture that I could find to suggest a pause in between the 69th and 70th weeks, as many attempt to do today (and as I have even done in the past). But a pause in time, however, is not out of the question in the middle of the 70th. Admittedly, I could be wrong, and perhaps there is no mid-70th week gap at all and Daniel’s prophecy continued to completion with the stoning of Stephen (Acts 11) about 3.5 years after the crucifixion of Jesus, at which point the Gospel was then preached shortly thereafter to the Gentiles (cf. Romans 1:16). Although the 70 weeks of Daniel can be consecutive from beginning to end, the possibility of a mid-week pause is a strong one in my view, and if only the first half was fulfilled then the other half is yet to be fulfilled. But what would that be? The answer should be obvious: the 1260 days / 42 months / time, times and the dividing of time spoken of by the prophet Daniel, and John in Revelation. It’s the 3.5 “prophetic years” of Antichrist during which time the people of God suffer intense persecution and God gathers the surrounding nations in judgment at Armageddon. Scripture itself never speaks of a future seven-years of anything. It just doesn’t exist. But it does speak of “3.5 prophetic years”, which just so happens to be half of Daniel’s 70th week.

    Dan, “You don’t seem to understand who the Antichrist is. While he is a great enemy of God, he himself, is also a judgment from God.”

    Absolutely, I agree!

    Dan, “Thus the rapture is to keep the church from this judgment of God.”

    Hold on, now this is where pre-tribism has major problems. Scripture only promises we are saved from God’s “orge” wrath, not the wrath of Satan, nor does it tell us that we will not be present to witness the judgments that God inflicts upon Antichrist, Antichrist’s people and Antichrist’s kingdom as He draws national Israel back to Him. I challenge anyone to find any Scriptures that promise the righteous will not be present on the earth to witness the events of Revelation. There are none whatsoever.

    Dan, “If you study Scripture with the wrong presuppositions you will end up with the wrong answers every time!”

    Bingo! And those who presuppose a pre-trib rapture to begin with will always interpret Scripture in light of such a presupposition. It is a serious hindrance. Remove such a presupposition, and everything else will begin falling into place.

    Dan, “The Jews are into the study of the Old Testament Scriptures far more seriously than most Christians are into the New Testament, yet after nearly two thousand years, most of them still do not see the Messiah!”

    Is the Second Coming of Messiah the catalyst that brings about their belief in Yeshua, or will their belief in Yeshua be the catalyst that brings about the Second Coming of Messiah? What Scripture tells us is that they will not believe in Yeshua until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And when does this happen? Since Israel does not turn to Messiah until the end of tribulation, the fullness of the Gentiles therefore does not come to fulfillment until the end of tribulation. Since believing Gentiles are grafted into the Church, the “Church Age” therefore does not come to its fulfillment until the end of tribulation. Only adding the presupposition of a pre-trib rapture says otherwise, not Scripture.

    Dan, “Most of them still do not see that the Messiah must come twice. So I am not surprised that you do not see the pre-Trib rapture.”

    I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make or how you make that connection. The one is not related to the other. I, too, believe that Messiah comes twice – once as a suffering servant, next as a conquering King.

    Dan, “Are you sure these are ‘post-trib’ cosmic signs? In my studies, which I documented in The Spirit of Prophecy, I showed that these signs are pre-trib, signs. They will also be mid-Trib, as well as late-Trib,”

    Yes, I am absolutely certain the “cosmic signs” are post-trib. Jesus Himself placed them for us in the eschaton as “immediately after the tribulation” (Matthew 24:29). There is no Scriptural justification for placing them anywhere else.

    Dan, “You said; ‘The “First Resurrection’ of the dead in Christ only happens after tribulation, not before. If there is no resurrection before the tribulation then a pre-trib rapture is impossible (cf. Rev 20:4-5; 1 Thess 4:16).’

    The first resurrection has already begun! Jesus is the firstfruits, and the first of the resurrection, but He wasn’t alone! There were other Old Testament saints who were resurrected at the same time!”

    If we are to believe the suggestion that the First Resurrection includes these particular Old Testament saints then we need Scriptural justification for doing so. The problem is, there is none. The Old Testament saints that were “resurrected” here were simply brought back to life. They lived out natural lives in natural bodies and died again later. Since they were not resurrected to eternal life they, therefore, have no association with the First Resurrection whatsoever.

    Scripture specifically refers to the First Resurrection as the “prōtos anastasis”, which means first in time or place or ranking. This resurrection is for the righteous unto eternal life in glorified bodies. The other resurrection is for the wicked who suffer the second death.

    Having said that let’s briefly examine the plain and straightforward teachings given by Paul and John. To reiterate what Paul taught us, Jesus was the “first fruits”, as you noted. This is separate from the resurrection of the dead in Christ, called the “First Resurrection” by John in Revelation 20:5-6. Some have also pointed to 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 in an attempt to claim that Paul was referring to “phases” of the First Resurrection, but if we read carefully what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15, he is simply explaining for us the order of three distinct resurrections, not about “phases” to the First Resurrection. Here are the three resurrections that we are told of:

    1. Christ’s resurrection — He is the First Fruits

    2. Those in Christ who are resurrected at His coming — Revelation 20:5-6 tells us that this first resurrection of the dead is after the tribulation, not before it.

    3. Then the end. Revelation 20:5a tells us that the rest of the dead after the post-trib first resurrection are not resurrected until the thousand years have finished.

    The only way for the pre-trib position to get around this serious dilemma is to somehow invent “phases” to the First Resurrection, but when we draw that suggestion out to its logical conclusion it is essentially stating that the rapture takes place before the First Resurrection is even fully completed, yet Scripture is clear that we who are alive and remain will by no means precede those who are asleep in Christ. The dead in Christ rise first, and then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them. According to Revelation 20:4 there are obviously still those who are dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation who will be raised in the First Resurrection, thus showing us that the rapture and Second Coming are married together as one singular event.

    The logical implications of the plain and straightforward teachings of the text is undeniable: If the First Resurrection is after the tribulation then there can be no resurrection before the tribulation, and if there is no resurrection before the tribulation then there is therefore no rapture before the end of the tribulation. There is absolutely no way around this without purposefully distorting the intended meaning of Scripture. According to both Paul and John, the rapture can only happen after tribulation, which means that the Church is present on Earth right up until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in power and great glory.

    Dan, “Besides this, I already shared Isaiah 26 with you. There is a very clear chronological order here of the dead saints arising, and then the rapture, and then the ‘Indignation’ or wrath of God.”

    Brother, the “indignation” is post-tribulational, it is the “orge” wrath, His righteous vengeance, not the “thymos” wrath where there is provision for repentance. To reiterate, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says that “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”. Other verses that say we are saved from God’s wrath are 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Romans 5:9 and Ephesians 5:6. If we take a quick moment to look at the Greek word for “wrath” in each of these verses, we will learn that it is the word “orge” (G3709). The original text of Scripture is therefore quite simple and straightforward. We are not appointed to suffer, and are saved from, the “orge” wrath of God.

    The word “wrath” itself is found 13 times in English translations of Revelation, yet what many teachers of Biblical prophecy fail to delineate is the fact that, in the original Greek, the word translated as “wrath” is not just simply from the Greek word “orge”. It is from two separate words — “orge” and “thymos.” Since many Christian teachers fail to identify this significant distinction they also then fail to realize that the “orge” wrath of God that we are promised to be saved from according to the verses above is itself only found six times in Revelation, and each time “orge” is found it is always used in a post-trib context only.

    Scripture is therefore telling us that the “orge” wrath that we are saved fro — His “indignation” — is not the same type of wrath that we find during tribulation. The “orge” wrath that we are saved from is only found immediately after the tribulation at the Second Coming of Christ. As such, even if the gathering does not happen until immediately after the tribulation we are still saved from the “orge” of God as promised, yet still present to witness the “thymos” wrath of the first six trumpets and vials/bowls upon Antichrist, Antichrist’s kingdom, and Antichrist’s people. In the “orge” wrath the anger will not subside. It will not abate. It is not a punishment to chasten and invoke the wicked to repentance like the “thymos” of God that we see during tribulation — because when the “orge” of God comes it is then too late.

    Dan, “I know you question what is meant by the ‘Indignation’ here, but here as in other places it is the wrath of God against the arrogance of man, and that is another name for the Tribulation.”

    We are talking about the eschaton where the wrath of God against the arrogance of man is His “thymos” wrath. This is what is found during tribulation. The “orge” wrath (the one that we are delivered from) is His righteous indignation. This is what is found immediately after tribulation. There is no way getting around this fact.

    Dan, “You Said: ‘ The marriage supper of the Lamb only takes place after the Lord judges the ‘great whore’ and avenges “the blood of his servants at her hand.” This is post-tribulational only (cf. Rev 19:2).’

    Funny thing, which I missed before; In Revelation 19 we have the marriage supper of the Lamb in verse 9, and then, afterward, in verse 11 we have Christ and the Church getting on horses and coming back to earth! They come back to earth AFTER the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, so long as you look at Revelation 19 chronologically!”

    Take a look at it one more time. The context clearly shows us that the marriage of the lamb is at the very end of the tribulation. Notice, those John saw rejoicing over the (past) destruction of Babylon were also rejoicing in anticipation of the “marriage of the Lamb” to come (“erchomai”, that is to say, it is coming into being per the Greek text). The Bride is shown in direct contrast to Mystery Babylon. It is vitally important to recognize the sequence laid out in this passage. John did not describe any wedding or supper occurring here. He was a witness to a joyous bursting forth of anticipation on behalf of the Bride after Mystery Babylon was destroyed. What John actually witnessed, after the destruction of Babylon, was the saints rejoicing because the time had arrived for the wedding of the Lamb. John then heard a pronouncement regarding the Bride’s wedding garments. Then he heard a blessing pronounced on those called to the wedding supper. Immediately, John saw heaven opened, and Christ descending, followed by the angelic armies of heaven. It is quite clear, from Revelation 19, that at the very end of the tribulation the marriage of the Lamb is still being anticipated right up until the Second Coming.

    Dan, “You may be correct that the Marriage supper of the Lamb is after the destruction of the whore of Babylon, but since this occurs at the mid-point in the Tribulation, there is plenty of time for a feast before we leave to come back to earth!”

    The mid-point of the tribulation? Where do you find that in the text? How can John be describing the mid-point of the tribulation when he is clearly describing Armageddon?

    Dan, “The elect gathered by angels in Matthew 24:29-31 are in their fleshly bodies. The Church, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will not need to be lifted aloft by angels, He will call and we will come to Him!”

    I have no idea what you’re trying to say here brother. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit today, yet we are in our fleshly bodies, today, and will remain in fleshly bodies right up until Christ’s return. It is only then that we are changed in the twinkling of an eye and our mortal bodies put on immortality, when corruption puts on incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:52-54).

    Dan, “Matthew 24 is several years later, and the clouds of Heaven are a reference to the Church. How could He be coming with them if he is about to send His angels to pick them up from the surface of the earth? There is a logical inconsistency in your beliefs!”

    If the “clouds” are a reference to the Church, then how on earth could the Apostle Paul have been writing about a pre-trib rapture when he said that “the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in THE CLOUDS” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17? How can the “clouds” be referring to an already raptured Church if the Church has yet to be raptured to meet them “in the clouds”? The fact of the matter is that every time these “clouds” are mentioned they are always described in a post-trib context (cf. Matthew 24:29-30; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 17:24-30; 21:25-30; Daniel 7:13; Revelation 1:7; 14:14) and 1 Thess 4:16-17 is no different. Maybe the clouds of heaven (“ouranos” – sky?) are precisely that – the clouds?

    I’d also like to make one more quick point, if I may. According to the Apostle Paul, our gathering to Christ is the Day of the Lord in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. Here are his words slightly condensed:

    2 Thess 2:1-3, ““concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him … [do not] become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy … saying that the day of the Lord has already come … for [that day will not come] until the [apostasia] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed …”

    Paul ties in the Day of the Lord with our gathering to Christ and uses the word “episynagōgē” (G1997) here when referring to the rapture as “our gathering.” The word “episynagōgē” (G1997) is from the word “episynagō” (G1996) — the exact word that Christ used in Matthew 24:31 regarding the gathering of the elect immediately after the tribulation. In explaining the rapture, Paul is in fact referring directly to Christ’s own teaching in the Olivet Discourse and connects the “watching” for the rapture with Jesus’ instructions for His disciples to be watching for His coming “immediately after the tribulation“. In other words, Paul is teaching us that the rapture is post-trib, not pre-trib.

    Dan, “Do you think you are ready to come back with Christ and rule the earth with Him as you are right now? I would not be so self-confident! I think we will need seven years in the University of Heaven, before we will be qualified to rule the earth with our Lord! … If we were to simply ascend into the atmosphere, and then come back to earth we would not be changed in the way He wants to change us.”

    You are free to believe that if you wish my brother, but I believe that when mortality puts on mortality and corruption puts on the incorruptible, that we are not only made perfect physically, but spiritually as well. The choice we made in this world to follow Christ is actualized and made manifest in Him. I don’t need to go to “UofH” (University of Heaven) and study Ruling 101. We are perfected in Him at our gathering together to Him and our “heavenly perspective” will be actualized immediately in the twinkling of an eye, changed in the way He wants us changed by Him.

    Dan, “Most Christians have suffered fiery trials throughout history. That was man’s wrath, but the Tribulation, the whole seven years of it, is the wrath of God.”

    Can you show me Scripturally? Because according to what I find it is the wrath of Satan, and any wrath from God during the tribulation is only directed upon a very specific group only — the Antichrist, his land, his kingdom, those who have received the Mark of the Beast, those who worship the image of the Beast, and those who have shed the blood of the saints (cf. Revelation 16).

    Good discussions brother! God bless you, and may the Spirit lead us to His Truth …

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