DeMar’s “The Myth of an Israel-Church Distinction”

Welcome to my exposé of Gary DeMar’s book, 10 Popular Prophecy Myths Exposed, chapter 1, The Myth of an Israel-Church Distinction.

As I have been reading DeMar’s book, I have noticed his frequent implication that “if Dispensationalists have made any sort of mistake, then we must revert to the older ideas, like Post-Millennialism”.  I disagree with this attitude, and I think I can show you why;

Dispensationalists have perpetrated the myth of an Israel-Church distinction that they say is based on a straightforward reading of the New Testament where at a particular point in biblical history God’s redemptive program changed from Israel to a new entity called “the Church.” It’s at this point, dispensationalists argue, that Israel’s prophetic clock stopped and a “mystery parenthesis” called the Church Age was inserted between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel’s prophecy (Dan. 9:24–27). The Church Age will end, so the argument goes, when the Church is “raptured.” It will be at this time that the prophecy clock will begin ticking again and God will once again deal with Israel during the seven-year Great Tribulation, Daniel’s 70th week.” (DeMar, chapter2, page 11)

I hate the way he says it, but DeMar is correct that the idea of a distinction between Israel and the Church is a myth, to a point.

The bible itself does speak of the Church as being a mystery hidden in the Old Testament (Romans 11:25 and 16:25). 1 Corinthians 15:51 speaks of the removal of the Church, the rapture, as also being a mystery. So the use of the term “Mystery”, in relation to the Church, should not necessarily indicate that a system is wholly inaccurate.

A straight forward reading of Hosea 5:15 – 6:2 does indeed imply that this “Mystery Parenthesis”, the Church age, would be about two thousand years in length.

DeMar spends the rest of the chapter showing that the Greek word Ekklesia, which is translated as “Church” actually means “an assembly of people”, and was used hundreds of years before Christ in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Septuagint, or LXX. This is true, but it does not necessarily follow that the Old Testament Saints, and the New, are the same Ekklesia.

I was very disappointed that DeMar failed to address Daniel 9:24-27 in the entire chapter, as if proving that Ekklesia means an assembly would somehow render the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy irrelevant.

So then, without an Israel-Church distinction and a shift in prophetic programs from Israel to the Church, there is no dispensationalism. If it can be shown that this Israel-Church distinction and two-program view is based on a redemptive fiction, then the entire dispensational system collapses. ” (DeMar, page 12)

The problem is; Who says that “if Dispensationalists have made any mistakes, the whole system is in error”? As he shows, some Dispensationalists do say this, but Dispensationalists are not infallible!  What if some of their findings are true, while others are not?

DeMar’s error is that he teaches that the older system must be correct simply because of its antiquity. Since several books in the New Testament were written to combat errors, like Gnosticism, and Judaizing, errors that are still with us, it is obvious that the antiquity of an idea is no guarantee of its truthfulness.

Given the above statement, and a statement by Charles Ryrie, to the effect that a “a dispensationalist keeps Israel and the Church distinct”, DeMar spends a lot of energy attempting to show that the believing of Israel, and the believing of the gentiles, are one in the Church. He does a good job, really, but he fails to address the big questions; “Does the bible make some sort of distinction between some believers, and others? Which ones? When, and how?

If the bible makes any such distinction, then the teachings of Dispensationalists are closer to the truth than those who hold to the idea that all believers of every age have the same status with God. I agree with DeMar that the Dispensational teachings on these distinctions are incorrect, but the distinctions themselves really are there!

DeMar actually quotes from Hebrews 12:24 yet fails to note that the Church-age believer is under a new covenant, and has a better sacrifice than that of Abel;

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of AbelHebrews 12:24

Everything about the New Covenant is superior to the Old!

Probably the most striking example of the difference comes from the Lord Himself;

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matthew 11:11

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. Luke 7:28

Now ask yourself; “Was John a true believer?” Of course he was. “Was John in the kingdom of Satan?” Absolutely not! “Isn’t everyone, even those in the kingdom of God, born of a woman?” Absolutely! “Didn’t John, as a great prophet, know the Holy Spirit?” Yes, absolutely! “Wasn’t John a part of an assembly of believers, an Ekklesia?” Yes, he was.

So what was Jesus talking about here?

John was an Old Testament believer. He was a saved man like Moses, Abraham, David, and many others, and like them, he was not permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came and went with John, and the other prophets.

This is why, when David sinned with Bathsheba, he cried unto God “Take not thy Holy Spirit from me”(Psalm 51:11)! He knew the delights of communion with the Holy Spirit, and He knew the Spirit would not stick around when he was embroiled in such deep sin.

In the Church age, however, we have another promise regarding the Holy Spirit;

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16-17

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews 13:5

Nowhere in the Old Testament are believers universally given the Holy Spirit, but Jesus was speaking of the indwelling of believers as a future event;

 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:39

The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was a new thing. This event is in view in John 7:39. It is not as if the Old Testament believers were indwelt, and then He was taken away, only to come back later. Such an event is not mentioned, because it never happened!

In John chapter 3, when Jesus said “Ye must be born again” he was speaking of a time yet to come. This is the defining element of the age in which we live; the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in all true Church members. Pre-Christian Believers, including John the Baptizer, were not given the Holy Spirit, nor were they ever said to be “born-again”. The true Church today is 100% born again, by the Spirit of God, and permanently indwelt by the same!

This is why Jesus said that John was the greatest among those who are born of women. John was only born of a woman. He missed out on the born-again experience! Church members who are indwelt will never be without Him for all eternity, whether on the earth, in Heaven, or in some other place that the Lord has yet to create! John, in order to be close to the Lord has to be in His physical proximity!

Gary DeMar is correct to note that salvation has always been the same; by grace through faith. Whether referring to Abraham, or Adam, or any other Old Testament believer, no one has ever been saved by keeping the law, or by animal sacrifices. The law shows us our sinfulness, that was all it was intended to do, and the sacrifices pointed to the only sacrifice that can work for salvation, the cross of Christ.

When Dispensationalists say that anyone was ever saved by keeping the law, they are incorrect. Seriously, biblically incorrect! This type of statement actually accuses God of being inconsistent with His own character! On this point I have to stand solidly with DeMar, but I’m afraid he has missed the major difference between the New and Old Testament believers.

Some Dispensationalists give the Jews a pass, as if Christ’s death on the cross wasn’t needed for them! No! The New Testament was written by Jews, who had received Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, His death was for Jews first, and also for Gentiles! In this age, Jews and Gentiles are saved in exactly the same way, and DeMar is correct for pointing this out. Unfortunately he missed out on the prophetic implications of Daniel 9 because he was focussed on one Dispensational error.

DeMar’s proves that there was an Old Testament “Ekklesia”, an assembly of believers, but this does not prove that the last seven years of Daniel’s chapter 9 prophecy has already happened. Rather than look through the Scriptures for an alternative explanation he has fallen back on tradition, a real shame.

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About dknezacek

An average, ordinary guy. Author, husband, father, pilot, aircraft builder, test pilot, machinist, artist, just ordinary stuff that lots of people do. Don't forget bible student. Dan's passion is bible study, especially including the End Times prophecies.
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65 Responses to DeMar’s “The Myth of an Israel-Church Distinction”

  1. There are a lot of “I think” and “I” references in these critiques of DeMar’s book, but nothing from the early Church Fathers and how they read the Bible. Since they would know better how to interpret the New Testament, since they are the successors of the 12 apostles and the 70 apostles and Paul, and the rest of the NT apostolic ministers, and their successors had successors, and the message of the New Testament was the same everywhere from 30 AD till about 800 AD with Charlemagne, the Church combatted all the heresies and overcame them, forming the tradition from the Holy Spirit at Constantinople I in 381 AD forever sealing the unchangeable tradition of the Church founded by Christ, the Orthodox Church. There is no dispensationalism or pretribulation rapture in the Church Father and the early Church, 30 AD to 800 AD.

    • dknezacek says:

      Scott,

      Both Irenaeus and Jutin Martyr wrote about a literal return of Christ and a one-thousand-year reign on earth. A great many church fathers were millennarians, or chilliasts!

      This is a doctrine that the enemies of Christ have attempted to stamp-out from the first century until now. Gary DeMar is one of those enemies!

      The fact is that it is what the Scriptures themselves teach that is the issue here. Church fathers sometimes made mistakes.

      Paul was pre-tribulational, and so am I!

      I have done a lot of articles on the rapture, the signs of the End Times, and the Tribulation itself.

      I would suggest you search this site for those terms, or better yet, get a copy of my book “The Spirit of Prophecy”

      Having read only one of my articles, and a brief one at that, I doubt you understand where I am coming from!

      And by the way the teachings of the Church, for all time, were sealed with the writing of the book of Revelation, somewhere around 90AD. What was added in Constantinople in 381 was nothing but Heresy!

      Dan

      • Perhaps you don’t know it, but the idea that the teachings of the Church were sealed at 90 AD with the book of Revelation is contradicted by 2 Thess. 2:15 which says the traditions of Paul and the apostles were spoken and not in the NT only. Sola Scriptura was invented by Martin Luther and other early heretics. What was happening at Constantinople in 381 was the truth, and to call it heresy is to make oneself a heretic. When one sets oneself up as an authority, one violates Scripture which says in St. Peter that “no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation”. Acts 15 sets the precedent for the NT Church, when any matter of doctrine was in dispute, the bishops and elders of the truth got together and listened to the Holy Spirit and together taught the “faith once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3). The authority in the Church is not any individual Church Father, but the 7 ecumenical councils. And the Church already decided in 381 AD that of Christ’s “kingdom there is no end” (no chiliasm/premillennialism). It is also doubtful that Irenaeus was a chiliast in the modern Zionist dispensationalist sense, as he did not use the newspaper and the secular headlines to interpret the Bible by ever changing current events.,

      • dknezacek says:

        If something is actually in Scripture it is NOT a private doctrine. It doesn’t matter if all the church fathers missed it. Sometimes God has reasons for blocking understanding until closer to the time!

        The truth is that Irenaeus and Augustine both taught Dispensationalism at times. Augustine repented of it, and became a persecutor of those who believed the truth.

        You should read Dispensationalism Before Darby by William Watson. Not only does he trace it back to the 1500s but all the way back to Irenaeus and Augustine. It is false to say that no one ever heard of it until Darby. It is true that not everyone he quotes has the same ideas as taught by modern Dispensationalists, but what they did have in common is the idea that Israel must return to the land and turn back to their God, before Christ returns!

        Dan

      • dknezacek. You need to repent of dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is not what the Bible teaches. The best short refutation of dispensationalism, is: William E. Cox, “Why I Left Scofieldism”. Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian & Reformed. See online PDF file of this Cox book on Scofield. Google. God bless you.

      • dknezacek says:

        Scott,

        I am not a classical Dispensationalist. I have taken what is true in Dispensationalism, and have moved forward!

        Amillennialism is preparing its adherents to accept, and crown, the Antichrist! It is a very dangerous philosophy!

        Dan

      • There is absolutely nothing at all true in any form of dispensationalism whatsoever, so only by abandoning every form of premillennialism and dispensationalism and Zionism can you ever begin to find the Biblical truth about Bible prophecy. The important thing is to be baptized Matt. 28 Acts 2 and to believe in Christ, true God and true man, the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, repent and follow God’s commandments and realize we are saved by God’s mercy, not our own goodness or works Titus 3.

      • Irenaeus Justin Martyr and all of the Church Fathers taught only one literal rapture second coming of Christ, not two second comings of Christ, as in the raptures before and after the great tribulation.

      • dknezacek says:

        Paul teaches that we will meet the Lord in the air. He does not touch down on the earth at the Rapture, but rather calls to His people from above and we will follow his voice and meet Him in the air!

        3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
        4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalm 50

        The rapture is NOT the second coming!

        Dan

      • The pretribulation rapture is not in the Bible. The rising (“rapture”) resurrection of all Christians occurs at the same “time” of the second coming of Christ. There is no rapture before a seven year tribulation. This was basically invented by Darby and other associates, in the years 1790-1830, the ideas were going around in the 1790s, and Darby was the main teacher of this view of rapture.

      • Dan, Have you ever actually read and studied the Nicene Creed finished at Constantinople in 381? Heresy? Have you studied it, word for word, and found anything in the NT that calls it heresy? Did any Church Father teach a pretribulation rapture? Is there any creed before 400 AD that officially taught chiliasm and pretribulationism? The facts show that the Church condemned chiliasm in 381 and that is good enough for me. God bless you. Yes, you are correct, salvation is by the cross and blood of Christ, not by OT law, to the Jew first, and then to the Gentiles.

      • dknezacek says:

        I have not read The Nicene Creed in its totality, and what I have read is correct, however, it is only a synopsis, and does not cover every doctrine of the bible. Creeds cannot, and were not meant to, replace Scripture.

        Augustine was an Arch-Heretic, and cannot be trusted on any doctrine! Jerome’s vulgate is an unreliable “translation” and again cannot be trusted.

        Modern pretribulationism has always been with the true saints, and I am talking about the people Rome burnt at the stake. You should read “Dispensationalism before Darby”by William Watson. Interestingly Mr. Watson has found over 350 documents with references to Dispensationalism before Darby was even born. Most of these are from the 1600-1700s although a few are from the 1500s.

        The authors in question are not “Church Fathers” since God does not use such people. He just uses the common man in the pew, and Pastors and elders. None of the other positions in the “Church”, such as Pope, Bishop, Cardinal, Monk, Nun, etc. are biblical.

        God never authorized tradition to replace or supersede Doctrines in the bible. If a tradition is not found in the bible it must be rejected by true believers.

        16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
        17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 3:16-17

        Notice that there is nothing here about tradition! It is Scripture that furnishes the man of God unto all good works. Not some good works, not most good works, but ALL good works! It is Scripture that matters, tradition is not even mentioned! Tradition spoken of in Scripture was given by the same people who wrote the scriptures, and in no way contradicted Scripture!

        On the other hand the “tradition” called “Transubstantiation” that the bread and wine turn into the literal body and blood of Christ, is a direct contradiction of the Word of God! Jesus said “the flesh, (His flesh) profiteth nothing!” (John 6:63)

        So, my focus is on what the Scriptures say, not what the Church “Fathers” said. The only real Church Fathers who actually matter are men like Paul, John, Peter, James, Luke, Matthew, Mark, and the other Apostles. And, since these Church Fathers, and Jesus, constantly referred to the Old Testament prophets, the OT Prophets are also very important!

        The Church that Constantine and Augustine founded has always fought against the true Church, even to this day!

        And, when the rapture actually happens, and they are left behind, the members of the false Church will still deny that there ever was a rapture!

        Seriously!

        If they admit it was the rapture they would be admitting that they themselves aren’t really Christians, and their whole world would come crashing down around them!

        So, Catholics will deny the rapture until it happens and then they will continue to deny it, even as they form the Church of the Antichrist!

        Dispensationalism does not fit the definition of a “Private Doctrine” because it is a movement of a large number of true believers. Rather it is a fulfillment of Daniel 12:4

        “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

        God wasn’t talking about general knowledge, but knowledge of the Scriptures. As more and more Christians compare Scripture with Scripture the knowledge of the End Times is increasing. It was all there from the beginning, but God only reveals His intentions more fully as the day approaches, and as Christians study His Word.

        God is revealing more and more of the End Times truths, as the day rapidly approaches, but those stuck in their traditions will never see it!

        Your faith is in men, not in God!

        Dan

      • I understand where you are coming from. You were taught there are only 2 forms of Christianity: Protestant, or Catholic. Well, Catholicism is not Catholic (Universal). You talk of Rome. It is true the tradition of papal infallibility is not in Scripture. But neither is dispensationalism and the pretribulation rapture in Scripture. The tradition of “Scripture alone” is not in Scripture, according to Scripture itself, 2 Thessalonians 2:15. I am not a Catholic. I am Eastern Orthodox. And the Church founded by Christ does not teach the pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalism is faith in the men who taught dispensationalism. Saint Paul got his revelation neither from men nor from an angel, but from Christ Himself, Who revealed Himself to Saint Paul. The revelation of God is in the Orthodox Church, so what we believe in Orthodoxy comes directly from God in the Holy Spirit, not from men. We are not free to make it up as we go along, as the dispensationalists do. Typically, dispensationalists like Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe look at the newspaper, instead of the Bible, to try to understand the prophecies of the Bible. You also state the facts, and mention that there was dispensationalism since the 1599s. This is logical, since modern errors stem to the Reformation, with its private interpretations of Scripture. For further reading on how I found the truth, see: Gillquist, Peter E. (2009). Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith. 3rd edition. Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Ministries. We follow neither the Roman Papacy nor dispensationalism: We follow the Holy Trinity in the Church founded by Christ, the Orthodox Church.

      • dknezacek says:

        Scott,

        I get the idea that you have a rather low view of Scripture, so I may be wasting my time. But I will try…

        16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
        17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
        18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Tim. 4

        The word for “caught up” is a derivative of ἁρπάζω “harpazo”, which in Jerome’s Latin Vulgate is rapiemur This has been anglicized to “rapture” in the English.

        So not only does 1 Tim 4 contain the concept of the rapture, but the Latin Vulgate actually has the word! You are incorrect.

        And, might I add, that we are commanded to comfort each other with this hope? He is coming for us, and some Christians will not have to die, but will be caught up to be with Him in the air! Those who deny the rapture are showing their lack of faith!

        This event is taught in many places in Scripture, including many in the OT, such as Isaiah 26:19-21, Zephaniah 2:1-3, Psalm 50, etc.

        I would not deny that there have been Christians in the Orthodox Church, but the official teachings of that church are actually apostate. Orthodox Christians are saved in spite of their church, just as Catholic Christians are saved in spite of the teachings of their church! Indeed, today most denominations are apostate, including the vast majority of Baptists, and Presbyterians! You can’t find truth in the denominations, but only in Scripture!

        I find it amazing that you would state that the teachings of the reformation are a “private interpretation”! To which doctrines do you refer? If you are referring to “salvation by grace, through faith” that is the only way any person has ever been saved from Adam until now! It is not a private doctrine but the true basis of Salvation. We could add that the object of such faith is the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

        If you are referring to the Calvinistic teaching of predestination, then I would have to agree with you, except that the word actually does appear in Scripture. It is just that Calvinists redefine the word to mean something it does not mean in the original.

        I don’t follow Dispensationalism either. I follow the Scriptures. As I studied I came to many conclusions that are not taught by Dispensationalists! I teach those things because that is what the Scriptures actually say!

        Be careful; I know Orthodox Churches often teach Replacement Theology. A belief in this abomination will lead many to join the Gog-Magog war against Israel, and later to join the Antichrist in his campaign against the people of God!

        Dan

      • Dan.
        It is your lie that I allegedly have a “very low view” of Scripture. I have a very low view of Protestantism. It is just that you cannot tell the difference.
        The Scripture isn’t Protestant.
        The Reformation came about because of the sins of Roman Catholicism. In this Reformation, Martin Luther and John Calvin “threw out the baby with the bath water”. Since Roman Catholicism deviated from the traditions of Christ in the Bible in the Orthodox Church, the Reformation tried to “return” to the traditions of the early Church, never knowing or understanding that these traditions are preserved infallibly in the Orthodox Church.
        It is a false accusation, in the spirit of Lucifer’s rebellion, to say the Orthodox churches are apostate.
        Not everyone who speaks for Orthodoxy is without theological problems.
        Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew is too much of a ecumenist with other religions; the Patriarch of Moscow is stronger and more traditionalist.
        There is sin in every human; but Orthodoxy remains the fullness of the gospel and the Church.

      • Constantine and Augustine did not found the Church. Jesus Christ did. Jesus Christ Himself founded the Church. The Orthodox Church. (Matthew 16:18ff.). Augustine’s traditions are not the same as those of the Orthodox Church. And Constantine is not a villain; he was used by God to secure liberty for early Christians.

      • dknezacek says:

        Jesus Christ founded the Christian Church. Constantine and Augustine founded the Roman Catholic Church. There is a difference!

        Dan

      • Constantine was an Orthodox Christian,not a Roman Catholic. He did not found the Roman Catholic Church. Arguably, Roman Catholicism was not founded by Augustine of Hippo, but by Pope Nicholas I around 867 AD with his excommunication of Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople. The Orthodox Church is not a form of Roman Catholicism without the pope. Jesus CHRIST did not inspire Roman Catholicism or Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation.

  2. Most of the Church Fathers were amillennialists, no premillennialists or postmillennialists like Gary DeMar. In their modern sense, premillennialism and postmillennialism didn’t develop until between and after in the 18th and 19th century, and Saint Irenaeus was not a chiliast in the modern dispensationalist pretribulationist sense.

  3. Find anything in Augustine, Jerome, Basil, Athanasius, Irenaeus, John of Damascus, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Maximus the Confessor, that said “Paul was pretribulational”. The facts show modern pretibulationism didn’t happen until the British Isles William Morgan in the 18th century and Margaret MacDonald and Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby in Scotland England and Ireland in the 19th century. “It is wrong, always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything, upon sufficient evidence. People who believe absurdities will commit atrocities”. Pretribulation rapture is one absurdity, and Hal Lindsey said the rapture would happen one generation after the birth of Israel in 1948, and a generation, 40 years later, no pretribulation rapture happened in 1988 AD.

    • dknezacek says:

      The jury is still out on what a “generation” means. The Scripture says “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Pass does not mean to pass the baton to another generation, it means to pass-away, to die.

      Then the second question is “what starts the countdown”. It says “all these things”, and since he had just mentioned the “fig tree” and Israel is often referred to as God’s fig tree, it was thought that the countdown would start at the reestablishment of Israel. Personally I think the countdown actually starts with the last remnants of Israel returning, at the end of the Gog-Magog war (see Ezekiel 39:25-29).

      If I am correct then the countdown has not started yet.

      The rapture will actually happen during the immediate aftermath of the Gog-Magog war, so the countdown starts with the rapture and ends with Armageddon.

      Dan

      • Scripture nowhere says Israel shall be reestablished, or that what was established in 1948 was Israel. It was not. The Bible says the Jews will be saved only when they have faith in Christ. The return of Jews to Palestine in 1948, 1967, 1973, is not fulfillment of Bible prophecy, as the Jews don’t accept Christ. Romans 11 will happen only when all Jews believe Jesus Christ is LORD. Ezekiel 39, I believe, was already fulfilled, BC.

      • dknezacek says:

        The nation being established is not the same as Jews being saved.

        1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
        2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord’s anger come upon you.
        3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger. Zeph. 2:1-3

        Here it says that Israel will be returned to the land in a state of unbelief! This is what is happening today, and it will continue through the Gog/Magog war. Read Ezekiel 38-39, and then go back and read 39:25-29. That is the last gathering of Israel, before the Tribulation. When it says ” Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;” it does not mean that they will all be saved at this time, only that now He will begin to work on them again. Now is the time He will witness to them about Jesus, and many of them will be saved, but not all of them. They are individuals and can make up their own minds.

        Isaiah 11:11
        And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

        No. Scripture says in many places that Israel will be gathered again. That is exactly what is happening today!

        If God were to break His promises to them He would be no better than the God of Islam! If your God breaks His promises, and transferring a promise from one group to another is breaking a promise, He is not the God of the Bible!

        Dan

      • The majority of Jews who entered Palestine (not Israel) came from Europe, and Russia, not from Egypt, Assyria, Cush, Pathros, and Elam. So there is no evidence that Isaiah 11 is what happened in 1948 AD.

      • dknezacek says:

        Scott,

        You need to do more homework.

        Zechariah 12:7
        The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

        Judah includes Benjamin and half the tribe of Levi. There are a smattering of some of the other tribes, but there are many Israelites yet to return. That won’t happen until the Psalm 83 war, and the Gog/Magog war. Once the Israelites who have converted to Islam realize that their God cannot help them, they will return to Judaism, and to their homeland! You will be shocked at how many Imams have Hebrew roots! But, they won’t go back until God show them His power.

        Note, just because they return to Judaism does not mean that they have returned to their true God; That will have to wait until after the rapture!

        Dan

      • Dan, You need to do more homework.
        See 2 Peter, “No prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation”.
        The Scripture is not a tool of “numerous verses to prove your points”.
        You should be seeking to prove the Scripture’s points, not your own.
        Protestantism errs because it is “not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God (the Holy Spirit), ye do greatly err”.
        God bless you.
        Scott
        PS The Gog-Magog war was in the past, and does not refer to a future battle of Armageddon in a literal Israel of the present days, but an ancient people’s invasion of the ancient Israel of the Bible.
        We should not be looking to Israel in the modern sense for clues to Bible prophecy.
        That is reading the Bible by the modern newspaper, rather than reading the modern newspaper by the ancient Bible.

  4. According to the Bible, God never authorized the Bible alone to supercede or replace the traditions of the Church founded by Christ, the traditions of the Apostles, of which the Bible is the main written part, but according to the Bible, going by the Bible alone is not in the Bible 2 THESSALONIANS 2:15 KJV.

    • dknezacek says:

      15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

      Since God knows all things, He cannot contradict Himself! Thus if there was a tradition that did not contradict clear teachings of the Word we could accept it. Unfortunately, all the Traditions of the RC Church always contradict Scripture; therefore we know they are not of God!

      Since Paul had visited that Church the “traditions” he was speaking of are the ones he and the other Apostles taught. There is no hint that anyone else was authorized to make-up traditions!

      Scripture is the standard;

      15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
      16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3

      So what was it that made Timothy wise? Scripture or Tradition? What did Paul say? Scripture of course!.

      Dan

      • Eastern Orthodoxy is what the Bible teaches. The Orthodox Church (Monopatrist Trinitarian Chalcedonian Christology) teaches the correct traditions of the Bible. In no way is the Church based upon the Bible. The Bible is based upon the Church. The Bible is the result of the experience of the Holy Spirit, not the cause. On the other hand, Papism and Protestantism, like Scylla and Charybdis, twin dangers, are traditions of men.
        “Orthodoxy is the very criterion of Christianity established by the Lord Jesus Christ Who said, “I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (St, Matthew 16:16).” (page 1: Hierodeacon Gregory. (1995). The Church, Tradition, Scripture, Truth, and Christian Life: Some Heresies of Evangelicalism and an Orthodox Response. Etna, CA: Center For Traditionalist Orthodox Church.).
        “Evangelicalism – “America’s folk religion” (1) – broadly designates the popular movement within conservative Protestantism which champions the Reformation doctrine of “sola Scriptura” and upholds all of its theologically concomitant features as normative for Christianity. … Luther and his fellow Reformers, with Papism as their reference point, redefined Christianity as being principally an “Evangelical: faith and only incidentally an “ecclesial” one; hence the appellation “Evangelical”, which the first generation of Lutherans and subsequent generations of Protestants adopted for themselves” (2)”. (Hierodeacon Gregory, pages 1-2.).
        Notes. 1. Randall Balmer, Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory: A Journey into the Evangelical Subculture in America. Expanded ed. (New York: Oxford University Press, 1993); page 7.
        2. Note that “… in Europe, the word [Evangelical] may be used as the equivalent of Protestant, or still more narrowly, as meaning Lutheran” (Everett F. Harrison, ed., Baker’s Dictionary of Theology [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1960]; s.v. “Evangelical”, by Loraine Boettner.).

      • If Scripture is the standard, who decides who correctly understands the Scripture? The Scripture no where identifies who are the correct teachers of the Scripture, so we are left without any way of knowing who correctly knows the Bible, since the Bible doesn’t speak for itself; people speak for the Bible in often mutually exclusive and differing ways? Where does the Bible teach “by the Bible alone”. The Bible alone theory is contradicted by the Bible itself in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2 Thessalonians 3:6. Take care. God bless you.

      • dknezacek says:

        The Holy Spirit is the Teacher of Scripture! You err when you say a human teacher is necessary. It is nice to have a human teacher, so long as they are faithful, but most are not!

        I have known Roman Catholics who were saved through reading the Scriptures alone. Their Church does not teach the true plan of Salvation but they found it through the reading of Scripture.

        Read this carefully;

        15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
        16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
        17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

        Note that it is the Scriptures that teach through the power of the Holy Ghost.

        John 14:26
        But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

        I Corinthians 2:13
        Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

        I Corinthians 12:3
        Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

        15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
        16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Hebrews 10 15-16

        13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Luke 11:13

        Yes the Holy Spirit is given to all those who ask for Him! He leads us through His Word, but human teachers make a lot of mistakes, and cannot be trusted. As I said they can be helpful, but we must always search the Scriptures like the Bereans;

        10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
        11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

        You need to be a Berean, and don’t take your pastor’s word for it, but search the Scriptures yourself, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you!

        The simple truth is that Scripture means what it says in the plain-sense of the words. God is quite able to use words, and He never condemns people for a plain-sense understanding of Scripture. Of course you have to compare Scripture with Scripture, Scripture interprets Scripture. Also, read the interpretations that people in the Scriptures get from other Scriptures.

        Moses interpreted Genesis 1 in Exodus 20:11. Read it like Moses did. As you go through Scripture you will see many people interpreting Scripture. Use them as your example.

        As far as I can see, those who do not want to believe what they read insist on having teachers tell them things they want to hear! This is the only reason people like Joel Osteen, or Joyce Meyers get the prominence they have today! They tickle ears, and the people want more!

        You may not like the fact that you can’t see the Holy Spirit, but He is here and is willing to teach you if you will listen to Him! Read the Word, and ask Him to open your eyes!

        Dan

      • You said “you err when you say a human teacher is necessary”. Following your logic, then, you cannot say that, or you would then be a human teacher saying that no human teacher is necessary. So by merely speaking this, you contradict yourself. Human teachers were exactly what the 12 apostles where. The Ethiopian eunuch confessed to St. Philip in Acts that he could not understand Isaiah 53 “unless some man guide me”.

      • dknezacek says:

        Scott,

        If I had said what you are saying, I would have contradicted Scripture;

        I John 2:27
        But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

        When I received the Holy Spirit, He began to teach me. Preachers remind us of what the Scriptures say, but the interpreter is the Holy Spirit. I have sat under many preachers who got Scripture wrong, but the Holy Spirit corrected them for me!

        Dan

      • Dan, The Holy Spirit? How is a soul to know who has the Holy Spirit, or rather, who is owned by the Holy Spirit. If a man says the Holy Spirit eternally “proceeds from the Father and the Son”, then that man does not have the Holy Spirit, and is not owned by the Holy Spirit, and does not have the Spirit of Christ, Who proceedeth from the Father (John 15:26). If a man says the Holy Spirit eternally “proceedeth from the Father alone” (John 15:26), that same man has received “from the Father alone” the promised Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit of promise (Acts 2:33). If the tradition does not come from the Church, it does not come from the Holy Spirit, for the Church is the Sprit-bearing community, founded by Christ Himself (Matt. 16:18). God bless you. In Erie Scott R. Harrington. See John 15:26 KJV, NKJV See Acts 2:33 KJV, NKJV

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      • Dan, It is apparent that you have not demonstrated nor given any evidence that I have anywhere in any way at any time in my emails to you ever contradicted any Scripture of the Bible. In any accurate English translation of the Bible. God bless you. Scott

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      • Dan, “It is one of the consistent teachings of the Bible that the Church is one Body, not a loose organization of free individuals trying to find the truth on their own. The Church is a unity, a collaboration, a mutual submission of each member to each other. Thus, the Church as a whole – all members functioning together – discerns good and evil by the grace of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit guides the entire Church, not each individual. If God granted individuals separate revelations, disregarding the level of their spiritual or emotional maturity, He would be giving them opportunity to fall into the sin of pride, the subtlest of sins and the most difficult to discover and purge”. (page 10: Marianna Friesel, Letters from a Convert: Missionary Letters from an Orthodox Convert to her Protestant Parents. Liberty, TN: The St. John of Kronstadt Press, 2nd ed., 1985). God bless you, Dan. Sincerely, Scott

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  5. Correction, you also state the facts, you mention dispensationalism going back to the 1500s. (Not 1599s; my typographical error). But you don’t have a document from 30 AD to 500 AD that comes from one of the councils of the Church, or from many many Church Fathers, who are men of God. Augustine made some errors, but there is some truth in his writing. He has some serious problems in his theology, which is rather a philosophy than Biblical theology, but some of what he states is Biblical and perfectly Christian, and some is not. John Chrysostom is a much more reliable Church Father than Augustine.

    • dknezacek says:

      Scott,

      I am currently reading “Dispensationalism Before Darby”. In it he quotes Dispensational teachings from Irenaeus and Augustine of Hippo. That’s right! Augustine at one time preached Dispensationalism and then backed away from it. In fact he even persecuted people who believed Dispensationalism, as he had once taught it! He is the anti-Paul of the false church!

      Be careful saying such things don’t exist. The bible clearly teaches it, and whenever people take the bible seriously Dispensationalism always pops up! There were several groups who taught it between Augustine and Darby! And yes they were persecuted, as true Christians are always persecuted!

      Dan

      • I do not believe in dispensationalism because I believe the Bible does not teach dispensationalism. For proof of this. Bahnsen, Greg L., & Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. House Divided: The Break-up of Dispensational Theology. Tyler, TX: Institute For Christian Economics.

  6. Your faith is in dispensationalism, not in God!

  7. Augustine at no time preached dispensationalism. The concept of dispensationalism did not arrive until 830 AD. Augustine died in 430 AD, and he taught amillennialism. The Second Ecumenical forbad chiliasm (premillennialism) in 381 AD.

    • dknezacek says:

      In Augustine’s early teachings he actually did teach Dispensationalism. Here’s a quote;

      “The divine institution of sacrifice was suitable in the former dispensation, but is not suitable now. For the change suitable to the present age has been enjoined by God, who knows infinitely better than man what is fitting for every age, and who is, whether He give or add, abolish or curtail, increase or diminish, the unchangeable Governor as He is the unchangeable Creator of mutable things, ordering all events in His providence until the beauty of the completed course of time, the component parts of which are the dispensations adapted to each successive age, shall be finished, like the grand melody of some ineffably wise master of song, and those pass into the eternal immediate contemplation of God who here, though it is a time of faith, not of sight, are acceptably worshipping Him.” ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102138.htm )

      This is indeed a form of dispensationalism. The fact that he later abandoned this teaching is of no consequence; The point is that the teaching was there at the time of Augustine, which point has been proven.

      Dan

      • Dan, Augustine was just one of the Church Fathers. The whole Church never accepted all of Augustine speculations as Gospel. These words of Augustine are just his opinions, not the traditions of the Church founded by Christ (2 Thess. 2:15, 3:6). The Church decided in 381 AD, “And He shall come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead, of Whose Kingdom there shall be no end” (no future 1000 year millennium, as this would be a kingdom that would come to an end).

  8. Neither Roman Catholicism nor dispensationalism are what the Bible teaches. They are 2 among many other heresies. Dispensationalism is not what the Bible teaches.

  9. Dispensationalism, Zionism, premillennialism, and pretribulational rapturism are preparing the world to accept, worship, and serve, the Antichrist. They are very dangerous philosophy, and heresies. According to Hebrews, Christ will come again “the second time” to those who are waiting for Him. If the pretribulation rapture is true, Christ will come again, two more times, and not only that, three more times, once in the pretribulation rapture, once at the second coming at the end of the tribulation, and a third time at the end of the 1000 year millennium, the final judgment day of Christ after the millennium and before the eternal state.

  10. dknezacek says:

    What the bible teaches is that there will be 2 major wars centered around Israel during the closing days of the Church-Age. Then Israel will return to the land, the Rapture will occur, and then the Tribulation will begin. Some of them will accept Christ, and others will turn to the Antichrist. 2/3 of them will die in the Tribulation and the 1/3 who remain will survive to live with Christ in Israel during the Millennial reign. The 1/3 of survivors will be 100% believers in Jesus Christ, as will be the 100% of the Gentiles who survive. Together they will repopulate the earth, with the World Government centered in Jerusalem.

    In the mean time the Antichrist will arise from the nation of Jordan, after the Gog-Magog war, and he will lead the world during the early years of the Tribulation. The Christian denominations who survive the Gog-Magog war will get together with the surviving Catholics and Orthodox, and believeing the Tribulation is over, they will set-up a joint headquarters in Babylon (Al Hillah) Iraq. This will be the first city of the Antichrist, and when it is destroyed, they will move their headquarters to his hometown, Amman, Jordan.

    The believers of Israel will actually be saved in Jordan,right in the Antichrist’s backyard!

    All of this can be proved from Scripture, as I have done so throughout my blog. I see you are not interested in the evidence I have provided, so I am not going to re-write them again. Take any of the terms I have used here and search my blog, and you will see numerous verses that prove my points.

    Dan

  11. Dan, The rapture occurs at the second coming of Christ (Hebrews), as Hebrews says Christ returns the second time, not 2 second times. The Jews will not be able to receive Christ after the rapture, for it will be judgment day and heaven and earth shall pass away and time will end. The time for Jews and Gentiles and all peoples to receive Christ is now, and only now, for, as the Bible says, “Now is the day of salvation”. Now is the only day of salvation. There may yet be a future in history before time itself ends, but this is not guaranteed, only likely. Because God is merciful, He has not elected to end time yet. No man knoweth the day nor the hour of the end of time, the end of the age, When Christ returns. God bless. Scott

  12. Dan, There is no Replacement theology in the Orthodox Church.
    Dispensationalism is Replacement theology, which teaches Zionist modern Israelis have replaced the Church founded by Christ as God’s people. It teaches, wrongly, that what happened in 1948 is fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
    According to Romans 11, All Israel will be saved.
    When Jews and what they call modern Israel believe in Jesus Christ, then Bible prophecy will be fulfilled.
    All that remains is for Enoch and Elijah to return to heaven to convert Jews to Christ in the Orthodox Church.
    The Church will not be raptured from tribulations, but will go through all the trials of the end time before Judgment Day and the Second Coming of Christ, where Christ defeats Antichrist and protects Christians and the Church from the Antichrist, and seals them with the seal of the Father, the seal of the Holy Spirit in the Church. God bless you. Scott

  13. dknezacek says:

    Scott,

    Dispensationalism does not teach that Israel has replaced the Church. It teaches that Israel has 7 years left that God gave them, to put away sin and anoint the most Holy, who is Jesus Christ. When you anoint someone, that is to make Him your king!

    The Jews who are saved after the rapture will be saved by faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. The 144,000 Jewish witnesses will travel the world preaching the gospel, and they will have converts in every nation of the world! Those Gentile converts will be saved by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and most of them will lay down their lives in martyrdom!

    The Church is kept (ek) out-of the Tribulation. The Greek word “ek” means “out-of” and definitely NOT “through”! We are not objects of wrath!

    Hey Scott, did you ever wonder why Jesus likened the kingdom of Heaven to 3 measures of meal?

    Matthew 13:33
    Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

    You see, the three measures of meal are the three streams of Christianity; Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Being mixed with leaven, until the whole is leavened is simply telling us that they will all become apostate by the time of Jesus’ return!

    First was the Roman Church, then the Orthodox, and lastly the Protestants have all gone Apostate! They are so Apostate that when the Antichrist shows up they will crown him as “King of the World”!

    When Jesus raptures the Church, there will only be a remnant left! Just a little flock!

    Dan

    • Dan, That is where dispensationalism greatly errs. The great tribulations, the 70 weeks of Daniel, were fulfilled with the destruction of the 2nd Jewish Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. If this was not the fulfillment of the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel and the passages in Matt. 24 Mark 13 and Luke 21, then Jesus Christ was a liar, because He said “This generation (the generation of Scribes and Pharisees and 1st century Temple Jews) would not pass away, until ALL these things shall be fulfilled. They WERE ALREDY fulfilled. Just as Christ PROMISED, the Temple was destroyed and the Jews (the religious leaders) were punished for crucifying the LORD Jesus. To preach a future punishment of Jews in the 21st century is anti-Semitic. Is a repetition of what Hitler did to the Jews in Germany and Europe, the Shoah, Holocaust. The Bible does NOT specify the details of the LAST days of human history. As Christ says, “NO man knows the day nor the hour”. So it is wrong to predict 7 year tribulations; these have already happened. Scott

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    • Dan, The pretibulation rapture is from Satan. It is a teaching of the Antichrist. You have been warned; it is not true. God bless you. Scott

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    • Dan, Unfortunately for you, your words are directly from Satan. The Orthodox Church has not gone apostate. You do not believe the Bible. Christ said, “Upon this rock (faith in Christ) shall I found My Church, and the gates of hell (mouths of heretics) shall not prevail against it”. The Bible is true, The Church has not changed in any age, the Church has not failed, the gates of hell have not prevailed against the Church; the Church has not fallen into apostasy. Individuals may apostastize; but the Church, no, is the same yesterday and today and forever, since “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever”. Roman Catholics and Protestants technically are not apostate; they never confessed the true Christian Faith (the Orthodox Faith). They teach false gospels of sola fide, Sola Scripture, salvation by indulgences, papal infallibility, purgatory, Filioque, private judgment, innovations, mandatory priestly celibacy, etc. God bless you. If any man love not the true LORD Jesus Christ, let him be anathema. Scott

    • Dan, God bless you. Here is some more truth.
      Why I Left Scofieldism.
      William E. Cox.
      Scofield flies in the face of many scriptures when he teaches that God has two separate bodies. Let a few such passages suffice.
      And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd (John 10:16, italics mine).
      For if thou were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree (Rom. 11:24)?
      In this verse Paul teaches two things pointing to one body, which is made up of Jews and Gentiles: (1) Gentiles were grafted into the faithful remnant of national Israel (not into a separate olive tree), and (2) the believing part of Israel will be grafted into the same olive tree. In other words, Paul explicitly teaches (by way of analogy) that God is grafting Jew and Gentile into one and the same olive tree. If God had two bodies, Paul’s logic would break down and he would need two separate olive trees.
      Let us continue with other scriptures which show conclusively that God has, not two bodies, but one.
      There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for
      ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:28,29, italics mine.)
      But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby (Eph. 2:13-16, italics mine).
      Whereby when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body,
      and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel (Eph. 3:4-6, italics mine).
      It would be difficult to find language any plainer than that used by Paul in the above-quoted scriptures. Paul states emphatically that God took two peoples and made them into one people. He says that God, in effect, took two men (Jew and Gentile) and made the two of them become one man. Truly Scofield contradicts the apostle Paul by teaching that God has two
      bodies.
      SCOFIELD TEACHES THAT GOD’S PROMISES TO NATIONAL ISRAEL AWAIT FUTURE FULFILLMENT.
      What is the historic Christian teaching on this subject?
      All such promises have been either fulfilled or invalidated through unbelief. Those on which Scofield rests most of his case have been literally fulfilled, and these fulfillments are clearly
      recorded in the Bible.
      Scofield, on the other hand, teaches that God has future plans to regather national Israel to Palestine, rebuild the Temple, and reinstitute the Old Testament economy (including the blood sacrifices). The reader might find it interesting to look at some of the typical scriptures on which Scofield builds this argument.
      On page 157, note 2, one reads: “The feast of Trumpets, vs. 23-25. This feast is a prophetical type and refers to the future regathering of long-dispersed Israel.” This footnote goes on to state that trumpets are always symbols of testimony and that they are connected with the regathering and repentance of Israel after the church, or Pentecostal, period is ended.
      Remember now, that this conclusion is based on Leviticus 23:23-25. Let us quote these verses word for word in order that one might see more clearly Scofield’s handling of the Scriptures.
      And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying. Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto God.
      You expected more? Honestly now, that is all the passage says! Check it in your own Bible. And on this passage, and others equally unrelated, Scofield bases a doctrine of the regathering of
      Israel to Palestine. Realizing that the Bible records two regatherings of Israel to Palestine in fulfillment of prophecies (see note on p. 25, S.R.B.),
      Scofield says that three such regatherings are predicted in Scripture. His only proofs for this alleged return are scriptures such as Leviticus 23:23-25, which we have quoted above.
      Actually, no third regathering to the land is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Scofield lists a number of scriptures on page 25, purporting to show by these that a third such regathering is
      promised. However, each of these passages clearly refers either to the first or second regathering to the land (already fulfilled, as attested to in the Old Testament), or to the first advent of Christ.
      It is not necessary here to refute all of Scofield’s claims for national Israel. His argument actually rests on whether or not they have ever occupied all the land promised them through Abraham. Scofield argues thus: (1) Israel has never received all the land promised in the Abrahamic Covenant (p. 250, S.R.B.); (2) therefore, she must some day return to the land; (3) associated with the land are the Temple, blood sacrifices, etc.; therefore, since they will return to the land, it stands to reason that they will rebuild the Temple and all that goes with the land.
      So, if Scofield is wrong concerning the land, his entire plan for national Israel goes begging. Let us examine the Bible itself to see whether or not God has kept his promise that Israel would inherit all the land of Palestine.
      Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them (Deut.1:8, italics mine).
      Please note which land it is into which God says Joshua will lead the Israelites.
      It is the same land promised to Abraham. And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in,
      to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers (Deut. 6:23).
      Moses stated explicitly that God’s purpose in the Exodus from Egypt was to fulfill his promise to Abraham to give the land to Abraham’s seed.
      Be strong and of a good courage; for unto this people shalt thou divide the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them (Joshua 1:6).
      Here God but reaffirms to Joshua the promise given through Moses, i.e., that God was now about to fulfill his promise to Abraham with reference to the land. Did God keep this promise
      through Joshua? What saith the scripture? So Joshua took the whole land, according to all that the
      Lord said unto Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. And the land rested from war (Joshua 11:23).
      And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass (Joshua 21:43-45, italics mine).
      Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it (Nehemiah (9:23).
      The above scriptures record the first regathering of Israel to the land. Scofield devotes not a single footnote to either of these verses! The prophets later predicted a second such re
      turn. This second return literally came to pass under the leadership of Zerubbabel, and its fulfillment is recorded in such books of the Bible as Ezra and Nehemiah (whose books, incidentally, were written after those of all the prophets with the possible exception of Malachi). Following this second return and the literal rebuilding of Solomon’s temple, in 516 B.C., there is not a single scripture reference, either in the Old Testament or the New, regarding a return to the land. What saith the scripture?
      SCOFIELD MISHANDLES MANY CLEAR VERSES OF SCRIPTURE.
      In 2 Corinthians 4:2 Paul prided himself on walking without craftiness and on not handling the Word of God deceitfully.
      Unfortunately, this claim could not be made for Dr. Scofield.
      For he posits his teachings on craftily manufactured premises, then handles the Word deceitfully in order, to support these premises. Lest this statement seem too harsh, let us look at only a few of the plain scriptures on which he places interpretations altogether contrary to their obvious meaning.
      Let us begin with Acts 15:16, since this verse is said by leading dispensationalists to be the most important verse of scripture in their entire school of thought (p. 1169, S.R.B.). Scofield interprets James as saying that, after the time that James was speaking, God would return and rebuild the tabernacle of David.
      Actually, Acts 15:16 is a quotation from Amos 9:11, and the words are those of Amos, not those of James. So that the “after this” refers to a time following Amos’s time, not to a time subsequent to James. In fact, James says (read the entire context) that Amos’s prophecy was fulfilled when Cornelius’ household (Gentiles) were added to the church. If this be spiritualizing then the blame must be placed on James, who spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And James definitely disagrees with Scofield on this interpretation.
      On page 1015, note 2, Scofield says: “The parable of the wheat and tares is not a description of the world, . . .” Verse 38 of this passage which the footnote is interpreting says, “The field is the world.” Here we have the words of Jesus versus the words of C. I. Scofield!
      On page 1036, note 1, one reads that the judgment of Matthew is
      to be distinguished from the judgment of the great white throne. One of the “proofs” of this is that “three classes are present, sheep, goats, brethren. . .. These ‘brethren’ are the Jewish Remnant who will have preached the Gospel of the kingdom to all nations during the tribulation.” What saith the scripture? In Matthew 12:48-50 our Lord asked a question and also gave the answer to it. “… and who are my brethren? . . . whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my
      brother, and sister, and mother.” Jesus’ own words would make the brethren of Matthew synonymous with the sheep of that same passage. This would give, not three, but two groups of
      people at the judgment of Matthew 25 the same two groups present in Revelation 20:11-15. Acts 1:15 and Hebrews 2:11,12 also refer to Christians as the brethren of Christ.
      On page 1023, note 1, Scofield says: “Christ confirms thespecific and still unfulfilled prophecy of Mal. 4:5,6: ‘Elias shall truly first come and restore all things.’ “ He goes on
      to speak of “that yet to be fulfilled in Elijah.” Here again, Scofield is daring to contradict the words of Christ himself. Jesus said: “But I say unto you. That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him
      whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him” (Mark 9:13, italics mine). Is any further comment necessary here? Scofield assigns Zechariah 12:10 (“they shall look on him whom they have pierced“) to a time following the tribulation and says it teaches that national Israelites will accept Christ at
      a future date. John says explicitly that this prophecy was fulfilled when the spear pierced Jesus’ side on the cross at Calvary (John 19:34-37).
      On page 1115, note 2, these words appear: “As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ (Rom. 3:24-26; 4:24,25). The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation. . . .”
      And on page 1011, note 2, he speaks on this same subject. “The new message of Jesus. The rejected King now turns from the rejecting nation and offers, not the kingdom, but rest and service to such in the nation as are conscious of need. It is a pivotal point in the ministry of Jesus.” Here Scofield lays himself open to the charge leveled against him, i.e., that he has more than one plan of salvation in his system. Note his words, “no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation.” He plainly implies that: (1) before Christ came, people were saved by good works (legal obedience); (2) now that Jesus has come, they are saved through Christ; and (3) good works now are a fruit of salvation, whereas before they were the means of salvation. And if Jesus offered people one thing in his “old” message while offering something else in his “new” message, what other conclusion can be drawn except that he offered two plans of righteousness?
      That thinking people have taken dispensationalism to present various means of salvation is evident in the report adopted by the Southern Presbyterian Church in the United States. That report, adopted by this assembly in May, 1944, was in part follows:
      It is the unanimous opinion of your Committee that Dispensationalism is out of accord with the system of doctrines set forth in the Confession of Faith, not primarily or simply in the field of eschatology, but because it attacks the very heart of the theology of our Church. Dispensationalism rejects the doctrine that God has, since the Fall, but one plan of salvation for all mankind and affirms that God has been through the ages administering various and diverse plans of salvation for various groups ….

      • dknezacek says:

        Scott, Presbyterians think that it is OK to sprinkle babies, and to call it baptism!

        There is no biblical warrant for this; there are never babies baptized in Scripture! Those who say there are, are actually reading their own theology into Scripture!

        Talk about heresy!

        Dan

      • True. But the eschatology in this book “Why I Left Scofieldism” is true, and agrees with the eschatology of the Eastern Orthodox Church. By the way, our Church does not sprinkle babies; it baptizes babies, children, and people of all ages coming into the One true Church, the Orthodox Church, by trine immersion in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19, Matt. 16:18). Dispensationalism in any form is heresy. Augustine did not teach any dispensationalism in the modern Scofield Walvoord Lindsey Darby sense. God save you. God’s love be with you. He loves everyone and so do I. Scott

        Sent from Mail for Windows 10

  14. dknezacek says:

    Scott, Jesus was not referring to the generation alive at that time, but to a future generation who would see the events he referred to at that time.

    Here is part of what he said;

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Notice that he is referring to everything he had said before, not merely to verses 29-32. When He said “wars and rumours of wars” He was actually referring to biblically prophesied wars, including Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39. All the events He was referring to will occur in one generation! What he said about the fig tree is often regarded as a reference to Israel coming back to the land at 1948.

    Personally I think that is a reference to the last remnants of Israel coming back at the END of the Gog Magog war (Ezekiel 39:25-29) Those people will see the end of the prophesied events.

    Dan

  15. Dan, Unfortunately, Most of what you have been writing to me, misquoting out of context so many Scriptures, is meaningless and not at all in any way whatsoever true. You are just giving opinions, not necessary doctrines of the true Christian faith. If you want the true gospel, see: Sparks, Fr. Jack N., Ph,D,, ed. (2008). The Orthodox Study Bible. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Bibles. Available from Ancient Faith Ministries, Chesterton, IN. See also: Bashir, Metropolitan-Archbishop ANTONY. (1998). A Catechism of the Christian Doctrine of the Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of All North America. Auer, Rev. Father Marc. (1990). The Myth of Papal Infallibility. Buffalo, NY: The Cenacle/ Liberty, TN: The Saint John of Kronstadt Press. Gillquist, Fr. Peter E. (2009). Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith. 3rd ed. Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publishing.

  16. Dan, Lots of errors mistakes and even very wrong heresies begin with wrong illogical phrases like, “Personally, I think”. As Christians, we are not called to personally “think” anything, but to believe and live by the “faith once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3 KJV). Scott PS God bless you and give you a happy life in Christ Jesus, now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

  17. dknezacek says:

    Scott,
    You are accusing me of reading the newspaper into Scripture. You obviously haven’t read many of my articles.

    I take issue with your statement that the Gog/Magog war happened in the distant past.

    Have you examined who is involved in that war? Let’s have a look, shall we?

    Persia is Iran
    Togarmah was the father of the Turkmen tribes, including Turkey, Turkmenistan, and the other Turkmen tribes throughout Asia including in places like Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, all the way to the Uyghurs of China.
    When it says “Gomer and all his bands” it is a reference to the armies of the nations who have descended from the biblical patriarch Gomer. Togarmah was one son, but this reference is to the other two sons, Riphath and Ashkenaz.
    Riphath was the father of the Celts. This includes Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany in France and also the Catalans of Spain!
    Ashkenaz was the father of the Germanic tribes. Scandinavia is a direct reference to this name, but his descendants also include Germany, Austria, Holland, Denmark, France, and England!
    Magog was the father of the Eastern Europeans including Hungary, Czech Republic (my people), Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, Georgia, and Ukraine. (and others, but you get my point)
    Meshech was the father of the Russian tribes who settled in the general area of Moscow, Russia. There are variations of this name throughout western Russia.
    Tubal was the father of the Russian tribes who settled in eastern Russia. There is a city named after him there called Tobolsk, and a river named the Tubal river!
    Ethiopia is actualy a reference to Sudan, which was a part of biblical Ethiopia, and Libya is Libya today.

    You said that this war happened in the distant past, but this is impossible; since when did these spread-out nations ever attack the tiny nation of Israel? It never happened in the past, and it can’t happen today, but the seeds of that attack have already been planted. All of those nations are hostile to Israel today, and it won’t take a lot for them to get together to attack.

    I think what it will take is the Psalm 83 war, and the end of the Palestinian hostility to Israel. Once Israel and the Arabs are able to work together they will experience a short period of unprecedented prosperity. What is preventing such a partnership today is Islam, and it is precisely this war that will turn those Arabs against Islam.

    Once that war is over, and the Jewish Muslims of Saudi Arabia realize that their false God can’t help them, they will return to Israel and back to Judaism. Only Judaism can’t save them, and God will use the Tribulation to turn them to Jesus!

    Be a Berean and study the Scriptures on your own. Don’t trust any commentator. Not even me! Read my articles and then study the Scriptures I have referenced, in context!

    It is a big job I know, but if you are serious then I would challenge you to do it.

    Dan

    • None of the early Christians believed what you said. It’s your heretical innovation. You have yet to prove otherwise. A good place to start would be the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture. Don’t sweat the small stuff. The Nicene Creed says nothing about your pointless fear-mongering speculation. The good news is, the future means Jesus is coming again, soon, but before that, many false prophets would arise, including those who twist the Scriptures about Bible prophecy. Jesus warned me that there would be people who falsely say “a sign of the times”. All we need to know about Bible prophecy is made plain by Christ. Every generation receives the sign of the times, the only sign. The Sign of Jonah. The Cross and Resurrection of Christ. That’s the only sign of the end of the age. Wars and rumors of wars. For 2000 years false teachers have been twisting these prophecies and applying them to their own times, only to be replaced by future generations who do the very same false thing.

      Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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