A great many professing Christians are questioning the Rapture of the Church these days, especially the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, taught by dispensationalists. If, however, the Tribulation is about Israel, and her relationship to her God, then the rapture has something to do with Israel, and it must be present in the Old Testament, the part of the bible they will read. Here’s what I wrote in The Spirit of Prophecy regarding the Rapture in the Old Testament;
“During the last seven years of Daniel’s seventy weeks, the Lord will revert to dealing with the nation of Israel as He did in the Old Testament. To do this He must first remove the Church from this planet. This event is known as the Rapture of the Church. This word comes from the Greek “harpazo”, translated into Latin as “rapere” or “raptus” which means to snatch or take by force. This word is translated in English as “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. (Stewart, Study of Harpazo)(PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE, Rapture Ready)
There is another reason that the Lord will remove the Church from the earth. That reason is found in the writings of Moses, of all people!
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. (Deuteronomy 32:21)
This verse poses a riddle which is answered by the Church. The apostle Paul quotes this verse in Romans 10:19 and identifies the “people who are not a people”, and “a foolish nation” as the Church of Jesus Christ. Christians come from all the tribes of the earth, not from any one people group, so we are a “People that are not a people”. We are considered foolish by the unsaved and especially the Jews because of the large number of denominations who identify themselves as Christian.
Paul does not specifically state how the Lord will make Israel jealous, but He does give clues. A few years ago I was lying in bed one Saturday morning and I was meditating on this verse. I thought to myself “It is nearly two thousand years since the founding of the Church, and Israel is still not jealous.” Now it is true that some Jews see the love of Christians for each other, and also for them, and come to Christ as a result, but the majority of Israel are still far away from God. They are not jealous. As I thought this thought the answer suddenly came to me; “The Rapture”! No I did not hear an audible voice, it was just a thought, but as I investigated, I became convinced that it was a thought given to me by God Himself.
As I meditated I realized we do not get jealous unless we see someone receive a favour that we perceive as unmerited, which we do not receive ourselves. When a parent shows favour to one child and not to another, the second child becomes jealous. To date, Israel has not seen the Christian world receive any great favour from God. When Christians die they immediately go to be with Jesus in Heaven, but this is something Jews do not actually see. To them, Christians live much the same way as Jews. We have to work for a living and we get sick and die in the same way as anyone else.
Israel will become jealous when God Himself shows a great favour to the Church, that He does not show to Israel. When He snatches His bride from off this earth, at a time that He is about to bring unimaginable horrors to those who are left, Israel will be as jealous as a wife who is left at home, to mind the children, while her husband goes out and marries a second woman! What’s more is that the Church does not deserve this favour, and they know it, as does Israel.
Every truly born again, regenerated believer in Christ will be caught up in the rapture including all gentile and Jewish believers. For one moment of one day the world will be full of unsaved people! There will be believers among them, but you can believe in the true God without being saved. Many of those unsaved persons think they have a special place with God. When they realize that they have been left behind they will become jealous. This will not only be the reaction of Israel but, I believe, of nominal Christians around the world. This event will cause these people to search the Scriptures like never before!
Note that in order for this interpretation to be true, the rapture must occur before the Great Tribulation period. Otherwise this jealousy of Israel would occur on Judgment day. God is not interested in making Jews jealous as he tosses them into the Lake of Fire. Everyone in that predicament will be jealous of the saints, not merely the Jews. The jealousy spoken of in Deuteronomy is for a purpose: to bring natural Israel to Christ!
It is true that the Gospel was initially given to Israel, and the apostles were obedient and preached it to Israel and the Gentiles, however, shortly thereafter the Jews dropped the ball, as it were, and it was picked up by the Gentile Church. Since that time the missionary work of the Church has largely been done by Gentile Christians. This is “the times of the Gentiles” that Jesus spoke about in Luke 21:24. Did it end in 1967 when Israel retook Jerusalem? I’m not sure. It may have began ending at that date, but Israel does not yet control the Temple mount. Regardless of the timing, there is definitely a “times of the gentiles” which Paul also spoke about in Romans 9-11. God is going to graft Israel into the tree again during the seven year, Great Tribulation period, shortly after the rapture of the Church.
Meanwhile, the devil is preparing a lie to explain away the rapture. He has been working on this lie for a long time now. After the rapture, the Antichrist, and false prophet, will pick up the lie and run with it! Any one who believes their lie will be lost for all eternity! We’ll examine the lie in the last chapter.
Deuteronomy is not the only place in the Old Testament where the rapture is mentioned. A pre-trib rapture can be seen in Zephaniah chapter 2. Here we see Israel, the “undesired nation”, gathered together and then the Church, “the meek of the earth”, are hidden in Heaven during the day of the Lords anger. Why does he say “may be hid”? Because not all professing Christians will be taken, only those that know the Lord personally, and are faithful to Him. Only those He knows are in view here. Does He know you?
Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD’S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger. (Zephaniah 2:1-3)
They will be hid in a totally secure place, God’s Heaven, not somewhere on earth. The bible says in no uncertain terms, that the Antichrist will have power over the saints and will kill them in great numbers. Here we have a promise that these people will be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger. They can’t be the same group of people as the saints who will be beheaded for Jesus. There is a third group who survive the Tribulation and repopulate the earth. We will discuss them later.
By laying down their lives this way the saints will actually have victory over the Beast! These people will have seen God’s power in rapturing the Church and they will know that He has power to resurrect them as well. Millions of Christians have been called upon to lay down their lives as the supreme act of faith. The saints of the Tribulation will lay down their lives as the greatest act of defiance, and faith, this world will ever know. Jesus will certainly see it and will reward those people in the sight of their enemies!
It will be an act of faith, but these people will also have the “sight” of having been witness to the rapture of the Church. They will have the “sight” of having seen many prophecies come to pass in a way that has not been seen from the resurrection of Christ until now. They will also have the “sight” of seeing the 144,000 Jewish evangelists successfully evade death at the hands of the Antichrist, and they will also have seen the two witnesses in Jerusalem and the miracles they perform. These people will see so many things, that confirm the Bible, that it is amazing that anyone would not come to Jesus Christ in faith.
And he (the Antichrist) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (Daniel 7:25)
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Revelation 12:11)
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:7)
In Psalm 50 the Lord comes and gathers his saints, the ones who have made a covenant with him by His sacrifice on the cross:
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. (Psalm 50:3-6)
The “fire” that shall devour before Him refers to the Great Tribulation period, generally, and the return of Christ specifically. Notice that there are two simultaneous judgments in view here. There is one in Heaven for the saved, and one on earth, the Tribulation, for the lost. Both of these judgments are different from the Great White Throne judgment, and the lost who die during the Tribulation will ultimately stand for Judgment before the Great White Throne. In the Heavenly judgment it is only His people who are being judged, not the unsaved. He calls them to the heavens first in the rapture. This Judgment is referred to as the “Bema Seat“, and is like the judgment at a sports meet, for which it is named. There will be no condemnation here, only rewards and the loss of rewards. The unsaved dead are in Hell, and the living are on the earth. If He has any words of rebuke for His people it is not the business of the lost!
Later on, after the Millennium, the unsaved dead will be raised and will face the Great White Throne Judgment. At that time the saved will be there as witnesses and will approve of the Judgment handed down from God. What a horrid place to be, to have God condemn you and then all the saints and angels agreeing with the verdict! Then to have an angel pick you up and toss you into the Lake of Fire, like a piece of garbage! This will be the fate of the majority of mankind, who have not received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. I am sure there will be many tears coming from the eyes of the saints, but they will acknowledge that the sentence is just. You have had the same chance as they have. There is no other Saviour! He is your only hope to escape this fate!
Psalm 144:5-8 also speaks of the Lord reaching down from Heaven to rescue His people during a time of earthly upheaval:
Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them. Send thine hand from above; rid me, and deliver me out of great waters, from the hand of strange children; Whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood.
Isaiah also speaks of the Rapture of the Church, in the clearest picture of the Rapture in the Old Testament. This has been in the Word of God for some 2700 years, why is it that few have seen it until now?
Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. (Isaiah 26:17 – 21)
Verses 17 and 18 refer to a pregnant woman beginning her labour pains. This is a reference to the wars and commotions that Jesus spoke about as signs of the end. The time leading up to the Great Tribulation is compared to a woman in labour. The pangs are first mild and far apart, but soon come closer and closer and more intense, until the child is born. Jesus referred to this time in Matthew 24:8 “All these are the beginning of sorrows”. Many new translations render this passage “All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.”
Many times in the Bible the period leading up to the Great Tribulation period is compared to labour pains. “And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.” (Isaiah 13:8) The same terminology and context is in view in Jeremiah 13:21, 49:24, Hosea 13:13, Mark 13:8, and John 16:21. As men we often do not think that labour could be that severe, but remember, many women have died in child-birth.
The prophet laments that Israel has not wrought deliverance upon the earth, as indeed they have not. They were commissioned to lead the nations to God but instead they have abandoned Him. They have been wasting their time for the last 2700 years! The implication of verse 18 is that Israel is being recalled, like a defective product, back to the land where their manufacturer will correct their deficiencies.
In verse 19 we see the first resurrection of the saints in the term “Thy dead men shall live”. The unsaved are not resurrected at this time, they are not “His” dead men, but children of the Devil. We see the saints singing, and the prophet himself anticipates being resurrected at this time! This is not a general resurrection which includes the lost, for at their resurrection they will not be singing, but in mourning and fear! We need to base our lives on the knowledge of the resurrection, and not the here-and-now.
In verse 20 we see the Rapture of the Church, occurring immediately after the resurrection of the saints. The chambers spoken of in verse 20 are the “rooms” or “mansions” in Heaven that Jesus spoke about. The comparison here is to the Jewish wedding where the bride is sequestered, with her husband, in her chambers for seven days, and is later presented as his wife. The “Indignation” is the Great Tribulation period, and verse 21 is a brief description of that event. The term “cometh out of His place” is a reference to Hosea 5:15 and 6:1-2 which takes place two “days” after he returned there. Very clearly the contents of this passage are an actual, physical, literal event, coming very soon to a planet near you.”
The foregoing was excerpted from chapter 2 of The Spirit of Prophecy, by Daniel Knezacek (copyright 2011)
housetops 
Personally, I’m already out of here lol! Nothing really matters anymore but getting my family ready to meet the Lord, and hopefully, to win someone to the Lord before He comes. It can’t be too soon for me!
Dan, just recently I realized that Isaiah 26:17 – 21 is about the resurrection and rapture of God’s people who then wait in their rooms in our Father’s mansion will His righteous indignation is poured out on the earth. Here is an article I wrote that was just posted on RPP about the 70th week of Daniel and the rapture of the elect. http://roshpinaproject.com/2013/03/08/the-70th-week/
Hi David,
It is just amazing how the Lord is moving in these last days. How many times have we read these passages and not understood, and then suddenly the Lord opens up our eyes, and we say “why didn’t I see that before?”
I think it is fulfilment of Daniel 12:9 The words were sealed until the time of the end, but now the time is here, and He is opening up our understanding!
If the last seven years are about Israel, and they are, then the Church MUST be removed before those years begin, AND the Lord MUST have put something about it in the Tanakh, since this is the only part of the bible the Jews will read. I can say of a certainty that it is there in at least five places, maybe more!
Thanks for that link. I am on the Rosh Pina Project almost every week. It is an excellent site.
Shalom,
Dan
Dan, I was taught the pre-tribulation rapture like many in the Christian Community. I read Hal Lindsey’s books and Tim LaHaye’s and several others. The problem is that Jesus (Yeshua) and the apostle Paul taught that the rapture happens AFTER the great falling away (apostasy) and the abomination of desolation. (Matthew 24:29-31 and @ Thessalonians 2:1-4) http://adventofmessiah.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/signs-of-his-coming-the-end-of-the-age/
David, I think we are in the great falling away right now. I don’t know how else to explain the New Apostolic Reformation, the Emergent Church, and Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven agenda. All of these groups are preaching another gospel, and another Jesus!
Matthew 24:29-31 occurs at the end of the Tribulation long after the rapture. The “clouds of Heaven” in the passage are the church-age saints who were raptured (snatched) several years earlier.
2 Thes 2:1-10 indicates a dual revealing of the Antichrist. I think he will be revealed to the Church shortly before the great snatch, they will warn the world to no avail, and then he will be revealed to the world in general after the rapture. Some will then start to believe, but the majority will choose delusion, and the Antichrist.
Dan
PRETRIB RAPTURE STEALTH !
Many evangelicals believe that Christ will “rapture” them to heaven years before the second coming and (most importantly) well BEFORE Antichrist and his “tribulation.” But Acts 2:34, 35 reveal that Jesus is at the Father’s right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His earthly foes at the second coming. And Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! They were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel’s posttrib resurrection!) It’s amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the “great commission” for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
Many don’t know that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into an idolized separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which evangelical scholars overwhelmingly rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [“gathering”] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google “Walvoord Melts Ice” for more on this.
Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture,” “The Real Manuel Lacunza,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” and “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot”.
[The foregoing was spotted on the net. Any reactions?]
Irv,
There are three occasions when the Sun is darkened and the moon is red like blood in Joel. One is BEFORE the Day of the Lord. In another the Day of the Lord is near, and the third is during the Day of the Lord. Which one are you referring to?
The Day of the Lord is a thousand-year-long day. A lot can happen in a thousand years.
The sermon of Pseudo-Ephraim from around 600 AD has a clear pre-Tribulation rapture in it. This was a popular sermon as it was translated into three languages. I documented this in the Spirit of Prophecy. So it is inaccurate to say that before 1830 everyone was post-millennial. Pre-Millennialists were a persecuted minority, but they were there. Anyway, who says the majority is right?
I am in the process of critiquing a book by post-millennialist Gary DeMar, “Ten Popular Prophecy Myths Exposed and Answered“. It is not hard to spot errors in his methodology, although he does make some valid points. I am attempting to address both, and am planning to take-on each chapter separately. Just because Dispensationalists have made errors, it does not mean that they didn’t find anything of value. Dismissing their findings out-of-hand is counterproductive!
Check out my examination of his introduction here:
The angel told Daniel “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”(Daniel 12:9) So why should we expect that there would be a perfect Christian understanding of the End Times, until the time of the end is upon us? For most of the Christian era it was not all that important, but now as the end approaches the Holy Spirit is revealing more than He revealed before.
As I have read the first chapter on the myth of a Israel-Church distinction, more of his errors have become apparent, although his critique of Dispensationalism has merit as well.
Those who think the Church will be on the earth, and will go through the Great Tribulation, don’t understand the character of God. The Tribulation is God’s indignation against mankind, but He has only love for His bride.
As I showed in The Spirit of Prophecy, Satan is setting up a pseudo-Tribulation, in order to make Christians think they are in the Tribulation, when in fact it hasn’t even begun. Then, when he destroys a Harlot stand-in, he will be able to get the world’s religions to unite, and protestants and evangelicals will join him!
Dan
Will the ones that are preraptured go through the mark of the beast?
Hi Sandra,
I guess you mean “raptured”, by “preraptured”?
I believe the technology is available now, but I don’t believe it will be a world-wide system until after the rapture. Could some nations experiment with the technology before the Tribulation? I think they might, but it will be voluntary. It isn’t the technology God warns us about, but the particular mark.
The key thing is to remember that it will contain either the number 666, or the name of the Beast, or his “mark” which I take to be some kind of logo.
If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, your body belongs to Him. I would not take any mark, or even a tattoo on my body, but, if like in the Nazi concentration camps, they force a mark, I would bet that it will probably not be in either the right hand or the forehead.
If they let you put it in your underarm, or your big toe, then it isn’t the mark of the beast.
What if they throw you in jail for not taking it? Then it isn’t the mark of the beast either, since the penalty for taking that will be death, not jail. Still, I wouldn’t take it, because your body does not belong to any government.
Thanks for writing, excellent question!
Dan
Matthew 24: 29-31 reference. No sir, I did mean prerapture. I wrote that because of the believe you have that the church will be taken out before tribulation. These three verses plainly state that immediately AFTER the tribulation that the saints will be gathered from the four corners of heaven. I believe the biggest problem most people have on this subject is that God does not intend for the church to go through the wrath of God. Tribulation is what man goes through at the hands of satan starting right after the death and resurrection of Christ up until the 7th trumpet. We are in the last period of that tribulation. Of course no one knows but God how much longer it will take. The last Great Day (one year as the bible counts it) is the wrath of God and that takes place immediately after the Church is taken up in the clouds and Christ exacts punishment on an evil world and destroys all human life. “we are not destined for His wrath” and that is true. It is preserved for the wicked. I am always amazed when people say that we won’t go through tribulation but the apostles went through pure hell to start God’s amazing church but the very end time church gets taken out of the way?
Does He love us better than His friends He made right here while He lived on earth? No. Life in Christ is not easy as the dear apostles found out. Also the church is being horribly persecuted all over the earth right now. We who love Him will suffer for His names sake. Thank you for letting me have this opportunity to respond. In Christ we stand and in Christ only.
Hi Sandy,
I did address Matthew 24:29-31 in The Spirit of Prophecy, and in several blog posts. Lets see if I can do this in a concise way;
And in 1 Corinthians 15
When Jesus appears, we will be like Him. Do you think people who have bodies like Jesus will need angels to take them to heaven? I don’t.
When He calls He will empower us to come to Him. This second passage is a reference to Isaiah 26:19-21
Here we have the resurrection of the saints and then immediately the rapture of the living saints, and their destination is their “chambers” in Heaven.
The problem with Matthew 24:31 is that the saints here are being gathered from a “heaven”. Which heaven do you think this refers to? I can tell that you think this is God’s home, but I don’t think it is.
There are three heavens in Scripture; The first heaven is the atmosphere of the earth, the second is space and the stars, and the third heaven is God’s home. Most people read the third heaven into this passage, however I think it is a reference to the first heaven. These people are in their natural bodies, not raptured, and thus need to be kept within the atmosphere of the earth.
They are picked up by angels, and held aloft, as the destruction of Armageddon goes on beneath their feet. They will stay within the earth’s atmosphere, and will be brought down to repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. They will be witnesses to their children of the amazing things they have seen during this horrific time, and this generation, like Noah’s family, will never abandon the Lord throughout the rest of their lives!
Your statement about those who lost their lives for the Lord is correct, and the passages I have quoted above certainly explains that they will be resurrected BEFORE the rapture. He has not forgotten about them.
Do you think I am saying that He loves us more than them? I think He has another purpose for the rapture than just because He loves us. Moses wrote about it way back in Deuteronomy;
God’s purpose for the rapture is two-fold; yes to show His love for the Church, but also to bring Israel to jealousy! At the end of the Church-Age, the world is returning to the last seven years He has promised Israel. Daniel 9:24-27 It is their time to put away iniquity. As as they see true believers around the world disappear, and even a few in their own midst, they will realize that they have been left behind to face the Time of Jacob’s trouble!
It is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” because it is about Jacob’s descendants, not the Church. Go back and read that section from Isaiah 26 again. This is probably the clearest rapture passage in the Old Testament, and possibly in the whole bible. It is in the Old Testament because the Jews will not read the New Testament, until they find the rapture in the Old!
They won’t find it until it happens!
Hope this helps,
Dan
1jn3:2 Of course we will, 1cor15:51-53 we will be changed AFTER the LAST trump, Is26:19-21 again, of course, and there can be NO trouble with Matt24:31. Reason; Christ said it. YOUR problem with Matt24:31 is the gathering of the saints from the four corners of heaven. If you wish to overthink this then tell me, does heaven (whether it be1, 2, or 3rd heaven) have 4 corners? No, this is a figure of speech which means they ALL will be gathered up. If Christ wants to gather us together using His angels, that’s fine with me. Makes sense really; take us all up from one spot. Hmmm. maybe the Mount of Transfiguration where Christ showed His disciples how it would be done. When you say you can tell I think this is God’s home, I am impressed. How could you get that out of what I wrote? Of course, you are so wrong. I know there are 3 heavens. Paul made that very clear. When I wrote does Christ love us more than His friends while He was on earth was not about anything other then we must go through tribulation just like they did. You have an huge misunderstanding on how this all plays out in prophesy. You completely leave out the fact that it’s the spiritual Israel, not the fleshly Israel God is looking out for in the end. Israel as a whole gave up their rights as a nation to receive the Father’s blessings. We must come into our faith one at a time. As far as bringing the Israelites to jealousy? He already did it by including all others in the blessing that was originally for the Israel nation. Daniel tells us they had 70 weeks of years to finish their transgressions and they did not. In the last week of years Christ came as their Savior and they denied Him, called Him a liar and killed Him. The nation of Israel as a whole still does not accept the Son of the God they profess to follow. So now those of us who believe in the Son are Israelites, spiritual Israelites. We shall be taken up in the clouds at the 7th trump and the rest shall b
e killed by the brightness of His coming. You make too complicated the simplicity of God’s Word. May you be continually blessed. Many thanks.
Sandra,
I think you misunderstand God’s purpose in making Israel jealous. He is not spiteful, but does everything for a purpose. His purpose in bringing Israel to jealousy is to bring them to faith.
Think of it this way; in the Old Testament Israel is pictured as the wife of God, in fact in Jeremiah 3 Israel and Judah are pictured as being two wives of God, both unfaithful.
The Church is the new bride.
What happens when a husband goes and marries another woman? What does the first wife do?
Some times she is so angry, in her jealousy, that she divorces him, but other times she goes out of her way to win him back.
This is the kind of response God is going to provoke in Israel, by the rapture of the Church, for the marriage supper of the Lamb. Some of Israel will be so angry that they will support the Antichrist, but the 1/3 will mourn for Him, and will long for Him, and will become faithful to Him, like never before in history! They are His remnant!
Something else; anger does not necessarily equate with jealousy. Israel has been angry with Christians for some 2,000 years, but not jealous.
For them to be jealous, they need to see God do something for the Church that He does not do for them. To this day they have never seen the Church receive a benefit that they thought should be theirs. Christians are persecuted, they get sick, and they have to work for a living, and sometimes they are victims of theft and fraud.
Christians go to Heaven when they die, but Israel cannot see this. They have no way of knowing the benefits that true believers in Jesus Christ receive. And they won’t until they see Christians disappear during the rapture.
That is the only thing that will make them jealous.
Dan
Sandy,
The Apostle Paul was an Old Testament scholar. The events of the book of Revelation were reserved for John. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of the book of Revelation, because he was dead long before John had his vision on the Isle of Patmos. He was referring to an Old Testament Judgment;
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These children of Israel, are not the Church, and at this time they will be unbelievers. Many of them will become saints AFTER the rapture.
The “Great Trumpet” of this passage is the actual trumpet that Paul was referring to, NOT the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
Notice that at this time, the children of Israel are being gathered, after a great war. This war is the Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39.
Now look at Zephaniah 2
Who is the “nation not desired”? This is Israel, the nation that rejected him immediately before the 70th week. That week has not occurred yet, because it was postponed. This is why Daniel 9:26 says that the Messiah would be cut-off at the end of the 69th week. 50 days later was Pentecost, and the Church-age began.
They will be gathered BEFORE the Tribulation, and then the wrath of God will be upon them. Do you think this is the Church? We are washed by the blood of the lamb. We do not need anything else to perfect us. The reason we have been suffering tribulation for the last 2,000 years is not for our sakes, but for the sake of the lost around us!
His blood is sufficient to cleanse us from all sin, and blemish!
The “meek of the earth” is the Christian Church, the body of true believers, but not all who have joined a Church. They will be “hid” in the day of the Lord’s anger, in the Third Heaven, not some place on earth.
Israel did indeed reject their Messiah, but He will not permanently abandon them. His abandonment has only been temporary, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Then He will sift them like sand during the Tribulation, and will save 1/3 of that nation.
The Lord specifically says that the 144,000 witnesses will be 100% Hebrew young men. He does this by naming the tribes from which they come. There will not be one Gentile among them, although they will lead many Gentiles to the biblical Jesus. While Gentile believers are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, we are not adopted into any specific tribe. Show me from Scripture where it says Gentile believers are a part of which tribe?
I am sorry it seems complicated to you. I just believe in studying the whole bible, because all of it has one Author. If we don’t we will take passages out of context.
You are correct that the “four corners of heaven” is a figure of speech. It means from all over the world, but these are not a part of the Church, but Tribulation saints.
The Church will be in glorified bodies, and will not be repopulating the world, but rather ruling with Jesus Christ. Jesus said that we will not be marrying, but as the angels in Heaven.
So who repopulates the earth? The answer is the very people who are picked up by the angels in Matt, 24. It is their descendants who rebel against Jesus some 1000 years later in Revelation 20:8-9.
Christians have always gone through tribulations, and still are today, but that is not the same as the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is God’s wrath against mankind. This is the wrath that He promises to keep us out of. It starts at the Tribulation, and for many, it will continue for all eternity.
The Beast himself is a judgment from God against unbelieving humanity. Essentially He says “You don’t like the Messiah I gave you, then you can have the anti-Messiah you want. Let’s see what He can do for you?”, and the Anti-Christ will come very close to destroying the whole earth!
You say that it seems complicated, but the fact that the Messiah comes twice also seemed too complicated to many Jews. Even at the ascension, they were still looking for Him to restore the kingdom at that time, but He said, not that there would not be a kingdom, but that…
They were correct that the earthly kingdom will belong to national Israel, but the time was not then, but some 2,000 years in the future…
I would challenge you to go through this blog and see what I have written about the End Times. Compare it with Scripture.
REad my articles on the Jordanian Antichrist
God Bless,
Dan
YOU WROTE:
The Apostle Paul was an Old Testament scholar. The events of the book of Revelation were reserved for John. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of the book of Revelation, because he was dead long before John had his vision on the Isle of Patmos. He was referring to an Old Testament Judgment;
”And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.” Isaiah 27:12-13
These children of Israel, are not the Church, and at this time they will be unbelievers. Many of them will become saints AFTER the rapture.
The “Great Trumpet” of this passage is the actual trumpet that Paul was referring to, NOT the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
Notice that at this time, the children of Israel are being gathered, after a great war. This war is the Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39.
I WRITE:
First, NOWHERE in this passage does it say anything about the children of Israel becoming saints after a supposed PreTribulational rapture.
Second, prove to me that THIS is the trumpet Paul was referring to. This is an assumption of your, nowhere supported by Scripture.
Third, prove to me that this is referring to the Gog and Magog war. AGAIN, an assumption, nowhere supported by Scripture.
If you look at the verse in CONTEXT, you will find WHEN this happens. It happens
1) when the Lord comes out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. This is the Second Coming and the battle of Armageddon. The Lord does NOT come out of His place until this time.
2) And at this time they shall worship the Lord at His Holy Mountain at Jerusalem. And since Jerusalem will be in the midst of war until the Second Coming, this is referring to the beginning of the Millennial Reign.
3) And it happens in that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea. AGAIN, that Day is not until the Second Coming.
4) And it happens in the days to come when Jacob will take root, Israel will blossom and sprout, And they will fill the whole world with fruit. This happens in the Millennial Reign.
You are grasping for anything you can to prove your theory, without taking into account the context and timing of the passages. This is a hallmark of PreTribulationalism.
YOU WROTE:
Now look at Zephaniah 2
“Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD’S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness , seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.” Zephaniah 2:1-3
Who is the “nation not desired”? This is Israel, the nation that rejected him immediately before the 70th week. That week has not occurred yet, because it was postponed. This is why Daniel 9:26 says that the Messiah would be cut-off at the end of the 69th week. 50 days later was Pentecost, and the Church-age began.
They will be gathered BEFORE the Tribulation, and then the wrath of God will be upon them. Do you think this is the Church? We are washed by the blood of the lamb. We do not need anything else to perfect us. The reason we have been suffering tribulation for the last 2,000 years is not for our sakes, but for the sake of the lost around us!
I WRITE:
First, show me in the Bible where it says that Israel will be gathered before the”tribulation,” and then the wrath of God will be upon them. God has been gathering Israel for nearly 2000 years. Paul, quoting from the Old Testament says, “Though the children of Israel be like the sand of the seashore, only A REMNANT will be saved.”
Paul goes on to say that, “Even to this day there is A REMNANT saved by grace.”
Second, you clearly do not understand the wrath of God. The wrath of God is inescapable and is poured out on the unrepentant. NO ONE escapes alive. When the wrath of God comes, God “GIVES THEM OVER” to their rebellion. Even today “God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness…” And the Church is still on the earth.
Third, you clearly don’t understand the difference between “tribulation” and “wrath.” They are not the same thing.
Fourth, you clearly don’t understand the purpose of tribulation. We are justified by the blood of Christ, and saved by grace through faith. But that faith is tested, and proved, and perfected through trials and tribulation. We are to “work out” our salvation. This is called sanctification and it is a lifelong process. Even Paul state that “Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that by which I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus…I press on toward the goal to win the prize…”
PreTribulationists seem to think that the prize is given to them with nothing whatsoever given on their part. James tells us this:
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. And perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.”
This is exactly what the apostle John was talking about in Revelation 3:10. Those who have persevered in trial and have had their faith tested and proved, will be guarded from the time of testing. Their faith will remain strong.
YOU WROTE:
His blood is sufficient to cleanse us from all sin, and blemish!
I WRITE:
Yes, it is. But we are also to “crucify the flesh,” and “put off the old man.” The one who hopes in Christ’s coming PURIFIES HIMSELF, just as He is pure. The Bride must make herself ready, by clothing herself with Christ. Faith without works is dead.
YOU WROTE:
The “meek of the earth” is the Christian Church, the body of true believers, but not all who have joined a Church. They will be “hid” in the day of the Lord’s anger, in the Third Heaven, not some place on earth.
I WRITE:
To be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger, is to be hid IN CHRIST. He is the Cleft of the Rock. He is the Ark. He is the Sanctuary. All who are in Him are safe from the wrath of God.
YOU WRITE:
Israel did indeed reject their Messiah, but He will not permanently abandon them. His abandonment has only been temporary, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Then He will sift them like sand during the Tribulation, and will save 1/3 of that nation.
The Lord specifically says that the 144,000 witnesses will be 100% Hebrew young men. He does this by naming the tribes from which they come. There will not be one Gentile among them, although they will lead many Gentiles to the biblical Jesus. While Gentile believers are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, we are not adopted into any specific tribe. Show me from Scripture where it says Gentile believers are a part of which tribe?
I am sorry it seems complicated to you. I just believe in studying the whole bible, because all of it has one Author. If we don’t we will take passages out of context.
I WRITE:
Have you noticed WHEN the partial hardening of Israel ends? Even NOW there is a remnant saved by grace, while the rest are hardened. This salvation of a remnant and the hardening of the rest will continue UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This happens WHEN THE REDEEMER COMES OUT OF ZION TO TURN GODLESSNESS AWAY FROM JACOB.” In other words, the fulness of the Gentiles will be completed at the Second Coming.
YOU WRITE:
You are correct that the “four corners of heaven” is a figure of speech. It means from all over the world, but these are not a part of the Church, but Tribulation saints.
I WRITE:
Show me in the Bible where it says these so-called “tribulation saints” are not the Church. It is an a priori assumption.
YOU WRITE:
The Church will be in glorified bodies, and will not be repopulating the world, but rather ruling with Jesus Christ. Jesus said that we will not be marrying, but as the angels in Heaven.
So who repopulates the earth? The answer is the very people who are picked up by the angels in Matt, 24. It is their descendants who rebel against Jesus some 1000 years later in Revelation 20:8-9.
I WRITE:
More assumptions not supported by Scripture. Tell me where Matthew 24 says these are the people who will repopulate the earth. Tell me where it says their descendants will rebel 1000 years later.
YOU WRITE:
Christians have always gone through tribulations, and still are today, but that is not the same as the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is God’s wrath against mankind. This is the wrath that He promises to keep us out of. It starts at the Tribulation, and for many, it will continue for all eternity.
I WRITE:
GREAT tribulation is STILL tribulation. It is NOT wrath. When God’s wrath falls on someone, it is because that person has hardened himself past the point of repentance. At this point, God gives them over to their own rebellion. NO ONE outside of the ARK survived. NO ONE in Sodom survived. NO ONE in Jericho survived. And NO ONE will survive the end times wrath of God. All who suffer God’s wrath end up in the Lake of Fire.
YOU WROTE:
The Beast himself is a judgment from God against unbelieving humanity. Essentially He says “You don’t like the Messiah I gave you, then you can have the anti-Messiah you want. Let’s see what He can do for you?”, and the Anti-Christ will come very close to destroying the whole earth!
I WRITE:
Yes, it is a judgment from God, but this in no way implies that the Church will not be on earth when the Beast reigns.
YOU WROTE:
You say that it seems complicated, but the fact that the Messiah comes twice also seemed too complicated to many Jews. Even at the ascension, they were still looking for Him to restore the kingdom at that time, but He said, not that there would not be a kingdom, but that…
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” Acts 1:6-7
They were correct that the earthly kingdom will belong to national Israel, but the time was not then, but some 2,000 years in the future…
I WRITE:
My Bible tells me the CHURCH will reign on earth, NOT national Israel,
“And they sang a new song, saying “Worthy are You to take the Book and to break its Seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a Kingdom and Priests to our God; and THEY WILL REIGN UPON THE EARTH.”
As for being complicated, that is not why the Jews rejected Jesus. They rejected Him because that refused to believe that they were sinners in need of a savior. Their self-righteous pride blinded them.
YOU CLAIM:
I can back-up everything I am saying with Scripture, and if I cannot, then I will repent. So far that has not been necessary.
Rather than saying that I am too set in my ways why not provide some bible verses that prove me wrong?
I know you pointed to Matthew 24, but I provided an alternate explanation that better fits the whole of Scripture.
Please notice that Jesus did not state that the dead in Christ would be resurrected immediately before the angels carry the saints into the atmosphere. Neither does it say that they are on their way to Heaven. If they were then they would already have missed the marriage supper of the Lamb, since that occurs during the Tribulation.
I SAY:
Please show me where the Bible states that the marriage supper occurs during the “Tribulation.”
And while you are at it, please show me where the “Bride Theft” scenario is in the Bible, the one that has Christ stealing His Bride, going to the Fathers House to enter the Huppah for seven years, while those outside are suffering the horrors of the “Tribulation.”
And your alternate explanation does not better fit the whole of Scripture. It better fits the PreTribualtion theory which is not in Scripture.
YOU STATE:
Please notice that Jesus did not state that the dead in Christ would be resurrected immediately before the angels carry the saints into the atmosphere. Neither does it say that they are on their way to Heaven. If they were then they would already have missed the marriage supper of the Lamb, since that occurs during the Tribulation.
I SAY:
If you look at the parallel passage in Luke, Jesus states that the elect are gathered from the ends of the earth and the ends of the heavens. Who are those gathered from the heavens? The dead in Christ, perhaps?
PreTribulationists claim that the calling up of John to heaven to be show things that must soon take place, represents the rapture.
Please notice that there is no voice of an archangel, no rising of the dead in Christ, no Wedding Huppah, and no judgement seat of Christ, Using the same standards as PreTribulationists, this CANNOT be the rapture, because it is differnet than Paul’s description of the rapture.
As for your backing everything up with Scripture:
What Scripture backs up the claim that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit?
What Scripture tells me the Day of the Lord covers the entire period of tribulation?
What Scripture tells me that the time of Jacob’s trouble is the time of God’s wrath?
What Scripture tells me that the saints in the book of Revelation are not members of the Church?
What Scripture tells me that the Church is a “parenthesis” in the middle of God’s dealings with Israel, and must be removed prior to returning to deal with them?
What Scripture tells me that Matthew 24 is not written to the Church?
What Scripture tells me that God has two peoples, and earthly and a heavenly?
What Scripture tells me that the Jews will return to the Law during the Millennium?
What Scripture tells me that there is more than one way a man can be saved? (Hint: NONE! There is no salvation outside of being in Christ, the Church, His Body.)
I’m done.
I didn’t say what you have written is too complicated for me, I said you make the simplicity of Christ Word too complicated. You are way off track on so many things but I can see you are dead set on your slant on prophesy. There is no point to go on with this. My prayer is that you will see your many mistakes in your prophesies of prophesy before it is too late. thanks for your time.
I’m sorry you feel that way, Sandy,
Why would Scripture tell us to study, if everything is so simple and study is not needed?
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” II Timothy 2:15
The gospel itself is simple. So simple that even a child can understand it, but there are depths in the Scriptures that the greatest minds in Christendom have not yet plumbed. The mind that inspired Scripture is the same Mind who wrote DNA, and even our scientists are only now understanding just the basics of DNA. They still don’t understand how it works.
I can back-up everything I am saying with Scripture, and if I cannot, then I will repent. So far that has not been necessary.
Rather than saying that I am too set in my ways why not provide some bible verses that prove me wrong?
I know you pointed to Matthew 24, but I provided an alternate explanation that better fits the whole of Scripture.
Please notice that Jesus did not state that the dead in Christ would be resurrected immediately before the angels carry the saints into the atmosphere. Neither does it say that they are on their way to Heaven. If they were then they would already have missed the marriage supper of the Lamb, since that occurs during the Tribulation.
Do you think this group are going to turn around in mid-air and rule the earth? I don’t know any Christians, including myself, who I would trust to rule the earth with supernatural powers. Most of them would abuse those powers. I think we all need at least 7 years in the University of Heaven, before we will have those qualifications.
Again, if those people were coming back, in their heavenly bodies who would repopulate the earth during the millennial reign? All the unbelievers will be dead, killed by the Lord for taking the mark of the beast,so if the believers were given their heavenly bodies at this time, and they will not marry or have children, then who will provide children to repopulate the earth? Who will be the parents of the vast multitude who rebel against the Lord during Revelaton 20:7-9, 1,000 years after Armageddon?
Your position leaves you with some serious problems, and I don’t think you can answer them, and be true to the Scriptures.
I am well aware that Amillennialists think this passage is the rapture, but considering that Amillennialism came from Augustine, you can be sure it is full of errors. Augustine was no church father, but the arch-heretic of the Roman Church! Following any of Augustines heresies, like Amillennialism, post-millennialism, and Calvinism, will pre-dispose Christians to accept the Antichrist!
Thanks, and God Bless,
Dan
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“So I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Let it not be! But through their fall salvation has come to the nations, to arouse them to jealousy…”
Paul goes on to say, “For I speak to you –to the nations– inasmuch as I am indeed an apostle to the nations, my ministration I do glorify; IF BY ANY MEANS I SHALL AROUSE TO JEALOUSY THOSE OF MY OWN FLESH AND SHALL SAVE SOME OF THEM.”
The rapture has nothing to do with making Israel jealous. This is one more example of proving a PreTribulation rapture by taking scripture out of context and twisting to one’s own ends. This is not “studying to show oneself approved,’ nor is it “rightly dividing.” It’s sad.
Hi Todd,
Paul’s ministry to the nations will result in Israel being provoked to jealousy…when they see the rapture. This is the only possible explanation for this verse.
Israel did not become jealous during Paul’s lifetime. Jews who get saved do not do so because of jealousy, but through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the same as any other believer.
I never said this verse proves the pre-trib rapture. There are many other verses that do that. This verse has only one explanation, and that is the rapture. I am sorry you are blind.
Dan
“This is the only possible explanation for this verse?” Did you not read Paul’s words? “Through their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. It is not the rapture that makes the Jews jealous, but the salvation of those who at one time were “not my people.” Paul, who is an apostle to the Gentiles, magnifies his ministry because he knows that through the salvation of the Gentile, Jews will be made jealous, and thus some of them will be saved. Let’s read that again in Paul’s words, and then you show me where a rapture is mentioned.
“Now I am speaking to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles. I magnify my ministry in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.”
Those who are blind are those who refuse to believe the plain words of Scripture. Nowhere in the passage does it say anything about a supposed secret rapture making anyone jealous.
You make the claim that the Jews did not become jealous during Paul’s lifetime, even though Paul specifically states that that is his desire and the very reason he “magnifies his ministry.”. You also state that “Jews who get saved do not do so because of jealousy, but then you turn around and say that “all Israel” WILL be saved because of jealousy. Which is it?
And if the Holy Spirit filled Church is “taken out of the way,” as PreTribulationists suppose, how will He minister to “all Israel?”
And give me one single verse that proves a PreTribulation rapture. For that matter, give me one single verse that says there will be a seven year “tribulation.” My Bible says the Saints will be worn down for a time, times and half a time, the Holy City (the New Jerusalem) will be trampled for 1260 days, and the Beast will reign for 42 months.
Hi Todd,
It appears you don’t understand the meaning of the word “jealous”? We become jealous when we see someone DO something for someone that we think we deserve. As a child, when my parents did something for my sisters that they didn’t do for me, I became jealous. Most people are much more child-like than we like to admit.
No Jew has ever seen a Gentile go to Heaven. Stephen saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God as they were stoning him, but they didn’t believe him, and had no reason to be jealous. It hasn’t happened as of yet. The Gentile Christians suffer like Jews. They have been martyred for 2,000 years. They may have a peace about it that the Jews don’t have, and maybe sometimes one or two of them do get saved, but Moses said;
He is going to move “them” to jealousy, and anger, not just a handful here and there. He is speaking of the whole nation, not just a few. “They” have not been moved to jealousy as yet.
Not all of them will be saved when they witness the rapture, but they will all be either angry or jealous. Some of them will support the Antichrist, as a reaction, and others will double-down and attempt to do it their own way, just as they did in the first century, but at least 1/3 will understand that this was the rapture and will get saved.
Here is what Jesus said about the pre-Trib rapture;
You see, those who escape the Tribulation will be standing before the Son of Man at the same time as the Tribulation is going on! Yes, I think this proves the Pre-Trib rapture.
Here is another one;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Thes. 1:7-8
Paul, Timothy and Silvanus are inviting the true believers to “rest with us” in Heaven, as Jesus brings the terrors of the Tribulation on the lost world. I know it does not say “Heaven” but that is where these 3 gentlemen have been for almost 2,000 years now.
Here is another one, where it is implied. Think about this;
There is a problem with this verse; Since Jesus rose again there have always been believers on the earth. How can God say “none did answer”? I know you might say that this is a general statement, but I think it is absolute. There is coming a day when there will not be one true believer on the earth; the time immediately after the rapture! Those who come to Christ after this time will have to go through the Tribulation, and many of them will die at his hands, although some of them will have special protection. Still these are those who you referred to as having been “worn down” by the Antichrist.
Satan knows that there will be a rapture. This is why it says of the Antichrist
Why would he care to blaspheme those who have died and moved on? That would make no sense. No. He is blaspheming those who have been snatched off the earth, and out of his grasp. He has to blaspheme them in order to discredit them and their testimony. Otherwise he would have to admit that they have been taken directly to Heaven! Not only this, but these are the people who said that “he is the Antichrist”, shortly before they were taken out. If he were to admit that they have gone to Heaven he would be admitting that he is the Beast!
No, he will have to say that their disappearance was judgment, and they were taken to Hell, or something like that! This would turn Heaven into Hell, and the Holy Spirit into the devil. This would be attributing a genuine miracle of the Holy Spirit to be the work of the devil, and this is the unpardonnable sin! Those who believe him will be lost for all eternity!
As I said the rapture has the purpose of ending the Church-age and returning the world to the age of Israel. As such the pre-Trib rapture can be found in Isaiah 26:19-21, Zephaniah 2:1-3, and Psalm 50;
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. 4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. 5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
You see our God will be judging His people at the Bema seat at the same time as the Tribulation is taking place on the earth! The sacrifice mentioned here is the one He made on the cross. They will be gathered to Heaven as He is bringing the plagues of Revelation down on the unbelievers on earth. I think this is another verse that proves a Pre-Trib rapture.
I also think that Isaiah 26:19-21 is even clearer. It is the clearest Old Testament passage about the rapture, and has the resurrection, the rapture, and the Tribulation in this exact order. I think it was to this passage that Paul was referring to in I Corinthians 15:52
You are looking for a verse that says “there will be a pre-tribulation rapture” and there isn’t any verse like that. However there are many verses that demand a pre-Trib rapture. If you can’t see it then you need to pray and ask the Lord to open your eyes. Seriously.
The passage very clearly says that after the resurrection, and then the rapture, that next will be the Tribulation!
Thanks for writing,
Dan
Just a few questions:
You claim:
“The Lord specifically says that the 144,000 witnesses will be 100% Hebrew young men.”
I say:
Tell me where the Lord says that they are “witnesses.” My Bible says they are servants. I see nothing mentioned about them witnessing during the “tribulation.” Are these 144,000 the “all Israel” that remains hardened until the fulness of the Gentile has come in, when the Redeemer comes out of Zion? I don’t see how they can witness when they remain hardened until the Second Coming.
You claim:
“During the last seven years of Daniel’s seventy weeks, the Lord will revert to dealing with the nation of Israel as He did in the Old Testament. To do this He must first remove the Church from this planet.
I ask:
1) Why MUST the Lord remove His people from this planet? Is He incapable of protecting them, making a distinction the way He did in Egypt?
2) Where in the Bible does it say that the Church Age is a “parenthesis” in the middle of God’s dealings with Israel? My Bible says that the Church is the culmination of the ages, and God’s eternal purpose in Christ from the foundation of the world.
3) Where does it say that the time of great tribulation is only for the unbelieving nation of Israel? And if that is so, that it is a time of Jacob’s trouble, how is it that Gentiles are involved?
You claim:
“The comparison here is to the Jewish wedding where the bride is sequestered, with her husband, in her chambers for seven days, and is later presented as his wife.”
I say:
Tell me where it says the Bride is sequestered, with her Husband, in her chambers for seven days. There is no such thing as the Jewish Wedding scenario portrayed by PreTribulationists. It is fabricated. Not one single website has ever cited where this supposed “tradition” has come from. The Bible warns not to go beyond what is written. Even in this supposed scenario, the guests who wait outside are not suffering through the wrath of the husband. They are celebrating, waiting joyfully and expectantly. According to the book of Revelation, the Wedding Feast happens at the same time that another feast is happening…when the birds feast on the dead bodies after Armageddon.
You claim:
“Please notice that Jesus did not state that the dead in Christ would be resurrected immediately before the angels carry the saints into the atmosphere. Neither does it say that they are on their way to Heaven. If they were then they would already have missed the marriage supper of the Lamb, since that occurs during the Tribulation.”
1) Luke tells us that the angels gather the elect from the ends of the earth and from the ends of the heavens. Who are these gathered from the ends of the heavens if not the dead in Christ?
2) Tell me where in the Bible it say that the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs during the Tribulation.
As for Isaiah “speaking of the Rapture of the Church, in the clearest picture of the Rapture in the Old Testament,” it is only “clear” to those who don’t understand the difference between the words, wrath, indignation and tribulation.
And it seems pretty unlikely that Jesus is present in heaven with His Bride, while at the same time is “coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.” If Jesus is in the Wedding Chamber with His Bride during the seven years, then He cannot possibly be punishing the world during that time, since that would require His “coming out of His place.” Jesus comes out of His place for “as it were, a little moment,” after the time of tribulation. That is when the Bride is hidden.
And in case you haven’t noticed, it is Isaiah speaking in these verses, not the Lord. “My people” refers to Isaiah’s people (just as “your people,” refers to the nation of Israel in Daniel 9).
“Like a woman with child…so WE (Israel) were, O Lord; WE were with child, WE writhed, WE have as it were brought forth wind. WE (Israel) have wrought no deliverance in the earth and the inhabitants of the earth have not fallen. THY dead (those belonging to the Lord) shall live, together with MY (Isaiah’s) dead body (Jesus’ body rose 2000 years before this time) THEY shall arise. Awake and sing, YOU that dwell in the dust; for THY dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out her dead.
“Come, MY (Isaiah’s) people, enter THOU into THY chambers, and shut the doors about THEE; hide THYSELF as it were for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold the Lord (notice it does not say “For behold I come…”) cometh out of HIS place (it does not say “…cometh out of My place…”) to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; (nor does it say …”punish Jacob for his iniquity…”); the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.”
You say:
Here is what Jesus said about the pre-Trib rapture;
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36
You see, those who escape the Tribulation will be standing before the Son of Man at the same time as the Tribulation is going on! Yes, I think this proves the Pre-Trib rapture.
I say:
Did you ever notice that Jesus had just finished telling his disciples what they would suffer?
“But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you sill be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of My name.”
“You will be betrayed even by your parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. Every one will hate you because of Me.”
“Stand firm and you will win life.”
So, tell me, how is it that Jesus is telling them to pray that they are worthy to escape these things, when He just finished telling them that they would not escape them, but indeed suffer them and have to “stand firm” through them to win life?
Those things that Jesus was referring to were the events after the signs in the sun, moon and stars in verse 25. Notice that the subject changes at this point for “you,” to “they”. These are the same signs that occur just before the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24. Jesus was also referring to the “carousing, drunkeness, and the anxieties of life, which could catch them in a trap if they did not watch and pray. We are to watch and pray, lest we fall into temptation by the cares and pleasures of life. Jesus also spoke of these things in the parable of the sower, warning how the seed could be snatched from our hearts because of persecution, the worries and cares of life, and the deceitfulness of wealth. This is what the “apostasy,” and the “mark of the beast” is all about. Trusting in the flesh, or loving not our lives unto death.
You said:
Here is another one;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Thes. 1:7-8
I say:
Our rest begins WHEN Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,” NOT seven years before this!
You say:
Here is another one, where it is implied. Think about this;
“I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.” Isaiah 66:4
I say:
Ok, I’ve though about it…and think you must be desperate to find proof for a PreTribulation rapture. I find no “implication” of a PreTribulation rapture. Jesus is talking about those who reject Him. NONE of them answer, and NONE of them hear. They ALL do evil before His eyes. God sends to them a powerful delusion, and brings terror upon them.
You say:
“Satan knows that there will be a rapture. This is why it says of the Antichrist
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Revelation 13:6
Why would he care to blaspheme those who have died and moved on? That would make no sense. No. He is blaspheming those who have been snatched off the earth, and out of his grasp. He has to blaspheme them in order to discredit them and their testimony….”
I say:
Revelation speaks of two kinds of people, those who dwell on earth, and those who dwell in heaven. Believers are already dwelling in heaven, since we have been raised up and are seated with Christ in heavenly places.
And Zephaniah 2 and Psalm 50 say nothing about a gathering before a time of tribulation.
I say:
The rapture does NOT have a purpose in ending the Church Age in order to return to the age of Israel. The Church was God’s eternal purpose from the beginning. In the fulness of time, God sent His Son. He is saving a remnant of Israel during the Church Age, and Gentiles are grafted into this Israel. Jew and Gentile are “one new man” in Christ. No one has, or ever will be saved apart from being in Christ. Old Testament Saints were saved in the same way that New Testament Saints are saved. “God, knowing that He would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In your Seed all the nations will be blessed.” That Seed is Christ, and the book of Ephesians tells us exactly what blessings we have in Him. It also tells us that in Him, Gentiles are made part of the Commonwealth of Israel, and are partakers in the Promises given to Abraham. Anyone saved during the tribulation period is sealed with the Holy Spirit and becomes part of the Body of Christ.
The book of Hebrews makes it clear that the “age of Israel” is done. The Law has been made obsolete by the one sacrifice of Christ.
The Gospel of the Kingdom is not different than the Gospel of grace. They are two sides of the same coin. Jesus came to save us by His grace. He will come again to set up His Kingdom where we will reign, Jew and Gentile together.
Tod,
Have you not realized that Christians have always suffered tribulation, but it has never been the Great Tribulation?
II Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
All true believers suffer persecution by ungodly men. The difference is that the Tribulation, the whole seven years of it is a judgment from God. This is the context of I Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
You see the chapter begins with the context;
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
You see verse 9 is continuing the same thought “the day of the Lord”.
You can’t see it because…
I Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Dan
I’m not sure this is a response to my post, since you didn’t respond to any of the arguments. Nor did you answer any of my questions.
Yes, I realize that the Church has always suffered tribulation. But that tribulation has always been localized and intermittant. What makes the Great Tribulation “great,” is not the fact that it is more horrendous (what can be worse than being burned at the stake?) but that it will involve the worldwide Church.
The Day of the Lord will not come unless the apostasy comes first. The Great Tribulation is not ONLY about national Israel. It is about the Church. Its purpose is to bring the Church back to repentance. This is the call to “Come out of her, My people.” God is measuring the Temple of God (“You are that Temple, if the Spirit of God lives in you.”) The The Holy City.will be trampled for 1260 days. This Holy City mentioned in Revelation 11 is the very same Holy City mentioned in chapter 21.
Now tell me please, where it says in the Bible that there will be seven years of tribulation. My Bible says the saints will be worn down for a time, times and half a time, the Holy City will be trampled for 1260 days, and the Beast will reign for 42 months. I see no mention at all of a seven year “Tribulation.” It is an unbiblical assumption.
The belief that this supposed seven year Tribulation is also a judgment of God is also an assumption not supported by Scripture. Tribulation and wrath and two totally different words and have two totally different meanings.
YOU SAY:
All true believers suffer persecution by ungodly men. The difference is that the Tribulation, the whole seven years of it is a judgment from God. This is the context of I Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus
Christ,”
I SAY:
First, tell me where the Bible says this “tribulation” is a judgement from God. I Thessalonians is talking about the Day of the Lord. PreTribualtionalist assume that the period of tribulation is the Day of the Lord. John makes it clear that the Day of the Lord begins with the pouring out of the Bowls of wrath. THESE are what we are not destined for. I Thessalonians says that the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. In the book of Revelation, Jesus comes as a thief to the battle of Armageddon.
So, no the context of I Thessalonians 5:9 is NOT the tribulation, but the Coming of the Lord “after the tribualtion of those days.”
Jesus makes it clear:
First, persecution
Second, a falling away and the revelation of the man of sin.
Third, great tribulation, such that none of the elect would survive if it was allowed to continue.
Fourth, the Sixth Seal events, which will last for an unspecified duration.
Fifth, the Coming our our Lord and our being gathered to Him.
Sixth, the pouring out of the wrath of God, as in the days of Noah.
Paul agrees:
First, tribulation
Second, the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin
Third, the Day of the Lord, which includes the Coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him.
Its very simple, and not at all hard to understand.
As for the natural man not receiving the things of God, that is referring to unregenerate man. Are you judging my salvation, as well as millions of others? Are you saying that millions of Christians are not really born again because their beliefs differ from yours on the timing of the rapture?
I grew up believing in the secret rapture, I no longer do. Heres why, God poured out punishment on Israel just like Jesus predicted over and over in the NT. It was in the first century, it was a 7 year siege on Jerusalem. The most ignored scripture by Christians prove the in the NT, but rapture has made tons of money, its an industry all to many have a stake in. I will briefly tell u what is ignored.
1. Jesus warned his believers in luke 2120-30,
You would say he wss talking about 2k years later,lol. No he was warning them, and it happened 35 years later. 2. Jesus told his court room, ” coming on clouds” look it up. They tore their robes over it, yet never talked about. It means they would be judged, and they would see it. And they did with the 7 year destruction.
3. Ill back that point even more, when Jesus was on the way to the cross, what did he say to the women of Jerusalem? Look it up. “Don’t cry for me, you will say to the mountains, fall on us” WTH? Why? This is a horrific statment, never heard preached on, why? Because he’s again talking to them about what’s coming thier way, and it did. People in the 7 year period
Were starved to death and women would eat thier own children. Its a fact of 1st century history of Jerusalem. 4. Jesus and the women at the well in John. She speaks to him about where to worship, he say, ” a time is coming, and NOW had come, where true worshipers will worship God in spirit and truth, not on this mt. Or in JERUSALEM!!! Jesus just blew up any thought of ( holy ground) or special land.
Yet so much is made of the holy land, its blasphemous, why. Christians and Jews make a lot of money, selling trips, books on rapture,
End times apocalypse makes a lot of money.
I use to believe, but it actually goes against what Jesus own words tell me. Didn’t Jesus say, ” it will be like the days of Noah, when the end comes, boom, those taken were not the saints. When Christ comes the dead will rise, those take away will be the lost. We shall be with him evermore. I don’t judge the motives, of
These people who ignore scripture to hold to rapture theology, but man they are sunburn.
Ralph,
You are ignoring a lot of Scripture!
There is so much hate being preached against the Pre-Trib rapture today that it is clear that it is Satan himself who is against it!
But what happened just before Noah went into the Ark? Enoch was raptured!
Noah was saved through the flood, but Enoch was kept OUT_OF the flood! God has promised the Church that they will be kept “out of” (ek) the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world. The word “ek” means “out of” NOT through!
Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I see that you are a Preterist. Preterism is actually a newer doctrine than Dispensationalism!
People who hate the rapture are going to have a field-day when the Gog/Magog war occurs, and they will think they are in the Tribulation, without the rapture happening first, but as I have shown numerous times, the Gog/Magog war is actually a Church-age event! It will happen before the Tribulation even starts!
All I can say is I challenge you to read the articles on my blog, and check-out the verses, in context!
Get “The Spirit of Prophecy”. You can’t begin to challenge it unless you read it!
Dan