The Pastor vs. the Elder

Growing up in Baptist churches I became accustomed to the “Baptist way”. “The way we do it is just the way it is.” Over time that Baptist denomination became more and more worldly, to the point where I began to look elsewhere for spiritual food.

I was initially attracted to fundamental, independent, Baptist churches because of articles by men like David Cloud, which explained the principles of simply believing the normal plain-sense meaning of the words of Scripture, also known as the “literal hermeneutic”.

Over time I came to the realization that there is a limit to how much of the bible Baptists actually take literally. It came as a shock when I realized that their traditions often take precedence over what the bible actually says.

Very often these churches are run by one man who is known as the pastor, or the elder, of the church. His rule is not to be questioned.

In the church where I was saved and baptized, I remember one preacher explaining that “the bible doesn’t really tell us how churches are to be run, so it appears that there is some room for variation within biblical New Testament churches.” At the time I thought he was correct, after all he was a preacher, and who was I?

Imagine my surprise then, when years later, I found that the bible actually does give instructions as to how the leadership of Christian churches is to be organized.

One of the first things we should note is the words of Jesus Christ Himself;

25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. Luke 22:25

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. Matthew 23:8-11

First note that the idea of one exercising lordship over another is a fundamentally Gentile thing. Jesus was telling us that the organization of churches is to be like the Jewish synagogue, and not like Gentile governments. Leaders of churches are there to serve the church, and not the other way around.

Paul’s letters to Timothy are letters of instruction to a young pastor. These letters contain some terms and ideas against which Baptists have generally rebelled.

People really want to have a man to whom they can look toward, to make the hard decisions, but when they do this it often goes to his head. In the end he often becomes a dictator, and the ministry of the gospel becomes secondary. It becomes more about him and his position than about serving the church, or the Lord Jesus Christ.

A church with which I am acquainted, has a board of “trustees”. Let me ask you; have you ever seen this term in your bible? It is not there. This is a term that someone has invented, and added to their system of church governance. There is a biblical term for the position of leadership of the church; “the elder”.

The term “elder” was not a term only applied to the preacher, or pastor. In the New Testament church throughout the New Testament there was always a plurality of elders who ruled the church. There was always more than one!

There is actually a word in the biblical Greek for the ruling body of elders; Presbuteros (πρεσβύτερος, Greek word #4245 in Strong’s ). This is the word from which the presbyterian denominations derive their name, and is often translated “elder” but also “presbytery”.

Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. I Timothy 4:14

I have heard pastors say “the elder was not an ordained position, but simply refers to any older man in the congregation”. This is wishful thinking on the part of a man who likes to have the preeminence in the local church. There are at least two places in scripture where “elder” was referred to, specifically as an ordained position.

And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. Acts 14:23

Notice the language here; there were ordained elders in every church. It does not say that they had ordained “an elder” in every church, but elders. Plural!

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: Titus 1:5

The “cities” in those days would be considered small towns today. There was only one church in these “cities”, but there were always more than one elder ordained to that position, in each church.

This is the outworking of Jesus’ command in Luke 22 and Matthew 23, that they were not to run the church like a Gentile government. Like the Jewish Synagogue, the church was designed so that the elders could share the burdens of ministry. It was also designed as a system of checks and balances, so that one man would not become preeminent. The elders had real power in the church, and could remove elders who fell into sin, including the pastor, or “overseer”. (Sometimes translated as “Bishop” in the KJV)

Most “pastors” rebel against this system of accountability, and tell us that they “answer to God” as if they don’t answer to the congregation. This is why we have church “trustees” who are really qualified to be elders. The resulting system of compromise has resulted in many abuses over the years, some of which have become very famous and have brought great shame on the church. If the world hates you because you preach the gospel, that is one thing, but if they condemn you because of your open sin, this is something else!

Notice Paul’s remarks to Timothy about the elders. Remember that Timothy was the pastor of this church;

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. I Timothy 5:17

Notice that though Timothy was a pastor, there were other elders who also ruled within the church. Notice also that not all elders laboured in the word and doctrine, though some of them did. Timothy was not the only regular preacher at that church.

In first Timothy 3 the word translated as “bishop” really means an “overseer”. This would be the presiding elder, or pastor. A biblical “bishop” did not have responsibility for more than one church, and as an elder he could also be removed if he fell into open sin, and did not repent.

19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I Timothy 5:19-20

Note that the original did not have chapter numbers or punctuation. This is one thought carried through these two verses, and an elder, including a pastor, who sins can and should, be rebuked publicly. The elder in question is the same elder who was ordained to that position in Acts 14:23, and Titus 1:5. Of course there needs to be two or three witnesses. God doesn’t want the church to be governed by gossip.

So where did the idea come from that the pastor is the only elder within a church? The short answer is the Roman Catholic church! The early reformers were universally trained by the church of Rome, and when they got saved and left, they carried with them the traditions they were trained in. For the most part they thought that the Catholic church had been truly Christian at one time, and merely needed reformation. As a result a great many errors were brought into protestant churches.

The Roman Catholic church actually refers to its priests as “the elder” of the church. This “elder” is ordained to that position by Rome. The idea of the one man pastorate is one of those Roman Catholic, Gentile, traditions which Jesus warned us against!

Because men like to be honored and called “Pastor, Pastor” they continue to interpret Scripture in a way consistent with the Roman Catholic Church!

So many Baptists rail against the errors of Rome, yet all the while perpetuating her errors!

What is my point in bringing this up?  It has to do with Revelation 17:5 “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

Here is a question to ponder; What is a daughter?  Who are the daughters of the Harlot?

My wife is a daughter of her mother.  She is the same type of entity as her mother.  Her mother is a woman, and so is the daughter.

A daughter is a woman who comes out of a woman. Therefore the daughter’s of the Harlot church are churches that came out of the church of Rome.

Most Baptists would agree with me on this, but they would stop short of saying that Baptists are daughters of the Harlot themselves.  The only church I was ever a member of was a Baptist church, but I have to say that the more I study, the more Baptists appear to be a part of Revelation 17:5.  I have only looked at one aspect of Rome’s teaching infecting Baptist churches here, but it doesn’t take a lot of study to find that the apple did not fall far from the tree!


About dknezacek

An average, ordinary guy. Author, husband, father, pilot, aircraft builder, test pilot, machinist, artist, just ordinary stuff that lots of people do. Don't forget bible student. Dan's passion is bible study, especially including the End Times prophecies.
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8 Responses to The Pastor vs. the Elder

  1. Sheryl says:

    Really interesting, Dan! I was born into a Southern Baptist family, and I don’t know what in the world, they were thinking, but no one ever had a one on one with me about- did I know where I would go if I died that day-not even my Mother who witnessed to her own Mother the night before she died at thirty-five. She died suddenly when I was sixteen, and my journey was a rough one, but ultimately, I found the Savior, but we know that He was there all the time, waiting and guiding me to that point in time, when the scales wonderfully fell from my eyes at home-just me and the Lord!

    Marriages fell apart under the ministry of our pastor, including mine, and we were remarried some time later; however, we resumed attending another independent Baptist church until I’d had enough-never went back to a Baptist church again except for my grandson’s baptisms! For a long time until our health was failing, we attended a Messianic Congregation-I’ve never known such worship, and Friday evenings were heavenly with the worship, music and messianic dancing-yep, dancing, but not like you may think-take a look there are many examples on Youtube. The most wonderful ‘church’ experience I’ve ever experienced! I’m looking forward to the day when I’ll have a new body, and the strength to dance in the streets of Jerusalem as we celebrate and worship the Lord as we never have before on this earth! How my heart is longing for that day….

  2. dknezacek says:

    Wow! Sheryl,

    It appears your experience was much like mine. I grew up in the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists in Canada. We had a variety of preachers. It didn’t seem to matter what they believed, but as a young person I didn’t know any of this until much later. Our church did preach the gospel, but lately they have been following Rick Warren’s agenda.

    We left and went to a local independent Baptist for a few years, and then went back, but they had become so modern in the mean time that we left again, and lately have been attending another independent baptist.

    I have written a couple of posts lately about that church. I questioned the pastor the other day about why he didn’t read from Moses when he was preaching from a passage where Jesus was speaking about Moses. His reply to me was “I have the words of the son of God. Therefore I don’t need to read anyone else”!

    These words sound pious until you realize that Jesus told us to read Moses! (John 5:46) Amazing! Honoring Jesus by disobeying Him! Who’d a thunk it!

    I wish there was a messianic congregation in our area. The closest one is over an hour away in the north of Toronto.

    Thanks for writing,

    and God Bless

    • Sheryl says:

      Dan we were driving for over an hour to get to the nearest Messianic congregation, but it was soooo worth it. There are several different types of Messianic groups such as Torah observant, and a few that are a little off the beaten path, but we just happened to end up with the congregation that I felt so at home with! We had some folks driving hours away, and folks in the congregation, put them up for the night! We’ve tried several other churches in another denomination, but they believe you can lose your salvation-can’t go that route either!

      We have been under some of the most arrogant independent pastors-it would knock your socks off! NEVER EVER again, would I ever attend one of these churches! I’ve seen some pretty horrendous discipline by the Lord in these churches too! A couple of them at this present time, have folded, and I mean good sized churches that we attended.

      My oldest son, in his early forties, attends a wonderful Southern Baptist Church in Spartanburg, SC, he and his family love their church! Way back they started that Rick Warren life study thing that was so popular-can’t remember the name. I found out what it was all about about the same time their pastor did-it was being used in SS there-he pulled it, immediately! This pastor FEEDS HIS FLOCK, and not his ego!

      Because of my Southern Baptist experience as a child and a teenager, I’ve always instilled in my three sons, that it would be their responsibility to lead their children tenderly to the Lord, and I’m sure my Mom would agree with that today, because she now knows that both of my sisters are lost-one a gay agnostic, and one in assisted living a burnout from drugs-children should be won as early as possible-not pushing-waiting on the Holy Spirit, tenderly leading them. If too much time goes by, and a parent isn’t consistent, they so often will harden their hearts as my sisters did after Mom died-my Dad was a deacon in the SBC, but with all my heart I believe he’s lost – so very lost, and in his eighties, now…. My Mother and I are the only ones saved in my birth family. I plan to ask my sister, soon, does she have any messages for Mom since she wont be seeing her until the GWT Judgment-last attempt-no more walking on eggs with her….waiting on the Lord for an open door, to say this to her. Please remember me in prayer as I approach this opportunity, hopefully soon, as she lives out of state, and I want to say this to her personally, that the Lord will be preparing her heart, one more time, to receive the Gospel.

      God bless you too, and Happy Feast of Trumpets in the Lord!

  3. Pingback: The roots of the apostasy | housetops

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  5. Don and Lori says:

    thank u very much for writing. In thi world, all the best ides get stolen dir the thief comes not but to kill, steal nd destroy. Jesus came that we might have life and that more abundantly. “Come out of her my people” pls visit

    • dknezacek says:

      Hi Don and Lori,

      As you well may imagine I hesitate to allow people’s links on my blog. They are mostly advertising for some product or service. So I checked-out your page before keeping the link. It looks like your page is legitimately Christian, and I am happy to promote it!

      God bless,


      • Don says:

        thank u very much.That is the best compliment we xould receive and we havr receives very little feedback. Si tyvm for visiting our site and allowing a link!

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